Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

One reason Israel doesn’t give these Palestinians citizenship is because, as a Jewish state designed to protect and represent Jews, it wants to retain a Jewish majority, and giving 5 million Palestinians the vote would imperil that.

Even among Israel’s 9 million citizens, roughly 2 million – the so-called “Arab Israelis” – are Palestinian. Stephens says overturning Zionism would mean the “political dispossession” of Israelis. But, according to polls, most of Israel’s Palestinian citizens see it the opposite way. For them, Zionism represents a form of political dispossession. Because they live in a state that privileges Jews, they must endure an immigration policy that allows any Jew in the world to gain instant Israeli citizenship yet makes Palestinian immigration to Israel virtually impossible

They live in a state whose national anthem speaks of the “Jewish soul”, whose flag features a Star of David and which, by tradition, excludes Israel’s Palestinian parties from its governing coalitions. A commission created in 2003 by the Israeli government itself described Israel’s “handling of the Arab sector” as “discriminatory”

So long as Israel remains a Jewish state, no Palestinian citizen can credibly tell her son or daughter that they can become prime minister of the country in which they live. In these ways, Israel’s form of ethnic nationalism – Zionism – denies equality to the non-Jews who live under Israeli control
The Guardian

@Chanjer

The outcomes considering the numbers involved suggest it's fairly one sided, in terms of power at least, no?

6 days to turn over the entire region? And they could all try again whenever they wanted and the result would be the same

Like I said I don't blame Israel for fighting back, I don't agree with all their policies in the region but see it for what it is

No, the numbers suggest that Israel chooses to invest billions in DEFENDING its population while Hamas chooses to spend billions on rockets and terror tunnels but no defence, not even bomb shelters.

Also, Hamas chooses to use its own population as human shields by firing rockets from the centre of built-up areas (some of which fail and come crashing down on its own people).

So it's hardly surprising there are more dead on the Palestinian side.

I feel sorry for the Palestinians. But you need to blame their leaders too, for failing to protect them, using them as human shields and deliberately targeting civilians, a war crime.

You can hardly expect the Israeli government to ignore 2000+ rockets aimed at its towns and cities. The result if Israel's superior defence is that it has fewer casualties. But Hamas ensures it wins the propaganda war. Which is also very important.

Horrible for Palestinians being used as fodder in a propaganda war. I feel very sorry for them. It looks horrendous.

Antisemitism isn’t wrong because it is wrong to denigrate and dehumanise Jews. Antisemitism is wrong because it is wrong to denigrate and dehumanise anyone. Which means, ultimately, that any effort to fight antisemitism that contributes to the denigration and dehumanisation of Palestinians is no fight against antisemitism at all.

Anne Frank House

Criticism of Israel or of the policies of the Israeli government is not automatically antisemitic. For example, anyone is free to reject or criticise the Israeli government's policy regarding the Palestinian territories. This happens in Israel, too

Even taking action against Israel or in favour of the Palestinian cause is not automatically hateful towards all Jews and therefore not necessarily a form of antisemitism. In theory, it should be possible to disagree about everything that has to do with the State of Israel. Among Jews, too, opinion is often divided

@StoneofDestiny

One reason Israel doesn’t give these Palestinians citizenship is because, as a Jewish state designed to protect and represent Jews, it wants to retain a Jewish majority, and giving 5 million Palestinians the vote would imperil that.

Even among Israel’s 9 million citizens, roughly 2 million – the so-called “Arab Israelis” – are Palestinian. Stephens says overturning Zionism would mean the “political dispossession” of Israelis. But, according to polls, most of Israel’s Palestinian citizens see it the opposite way. For them, Zionism represents a form of political dispossession. Because they live in a state that privileges Jews, they must endure an immigration policy that allows any Jew in the world to gain instant Israeli citizenship yet makes Palestinian immigration to Israel virtually impossible

They live in a state whose national anthem speaks of the “Jewish soul”, whose flag features a Star of David and which, by tradition, excludes Israel’s Palestinian parties from its governing coalitions. A commission created in 2003 by the Israeli government itself described Israel’s “handling of the Arab sector” as “discriminatory”

So long as Israel remains a Jewish state, no Palestinian citizen can credibly tell her son or daughter that they can become prime minister of the country in which they live. In these ways, Israel’s form of ethnic nationalism – Zionism – denies equality to the non-Jews who live under Israeli control
The Guardian

I don't know why you get so excited about ethno-nationalism. Most countries practice a form of it. I couldn't marry royalty in this country as I'm not C of E. We have an established Church. Many schools are Christian. Christian holidays are public holidays. I'm not Christian but I deal with it fine. If I choose to live in a Christian country, then that's what I accept.

All across the Middle East and N Africa, there are numerous Muslim countries where non-Muslims are treated as second-class citizens and likewise cannot aspire to being PM.

I sometimes think people who make these points about Israel are just incredibly ignorant or have never stopped to think about how most of the world works.

Think you're going to have ruling Hindu parties and become PM if you are a Hindu whose family came from Pakistan and was forced to leave in 1947? Think again.

StoneofDestiny

Antisemitism isn’t wrong because it is wrong to denigrate and dehumanise Jews. Antisemitism is wrong because it is wrong to denigrate and dehumanise anyone. Which means, ultimately, that any effort to fight antisemitism that contributes to the denigration and dehumanisation of Palestinians is no fight against antisemitism at all.

Where was this quote from?

The quotes you shared are so incredibly validating I have tears of relief rolling down.

I’m just glad, humanity is still out there.

Ikeasucks

I don’t trust amnesty to be a fair and unbiased observer as shown by their recent attempt to shut down free speech and representation for women in Ireland

Can you suggest, a credible source for human rights and international law monitoring that would agree with your objective morality ? And not have any bias towards any sides of the conflict?

In order for conflicts to be resolvable, we need some boundaries around human rights and international law that is not on the terms of anyone involved in the conflict.

To suppress the the voice of internajronal law makers and human rights watchers without offering alternatives makes your morals questionable.

Is it because it doesn’t fit an occupational agenda?

@anemona yes, a lot of shit has happened in the world, nobody is denying that, but it doesn’t mean people just give up to make things ‘easier’. Look at the huge political movement that helped end apartheid in South Africa. If Algeria didn’t retaliate it would still be under French rule. People have always fought for what is right, and will always continue to do so.

[quote anemona]@JustFedUpOfThis - of things we're waiting for, I'm waiting for you to tell me whether you'd rather live as a Muslim in Israel or a Jew in say Iran.

Particularly a female or gay one.

Be honest.[/quote]
@anemona

This is a ridiculous question clearly designed to deflect. This is primary school level debating.

As we are discussion the plight of Israelis and Palestinians on this thread, a more relevant one would be

“Would YOU prefer to live as a Jew or. Muslim in Israel?”

Answer that rather than try to deflect to entirely different issues.

@StoneofDestiny

Anne Frank House

Criticism of Israel or of the policies of the Israeli government is not automatically antisemitic. For example, anyone is free to reject or criticise the Israeli government's policy regarding the Palestinian territories. This happens in Israel, too

Even taking action against Israel or in favour of the Palestinian cause is not automatically hateful towards all Jews and therefore not necessarily a form of antisemitism. In theory, it should be possible to disagree about everything that has to do with the State of Israel. Among Jews, too, opinion is often divided

Absolutely, I’ve been trying to find a documentary I watched by a young American Jewish woman.( about 4 years ago) I think she was a writer or journalist. She went to see what was happening and she was heartbroken.

There was a scene where the Palestinian roads had been filled with rubble and they had to use the roads that the Israeli government had made. Only you couldn’t travel on them at night and a family that were taking a women in labour with twins were turned back - they couldn’t even access the hospital.

It shown family’s being evicted out of houses and off land and given to Israelis that had been encouraged and given money to move there.

She was Jewish and loved her faith but she was against what the Israeli state were doing.

They are two very different things.

Palestine has been hammered in the past decades - drought, famine, mass movement from other areas to it and continued attacks from a country much much bigger and wealthier.

They need a break

I think anenoma has brought attention to the issues that are focused on and the ones that are ignored. It’s not deflection. We learn a lot about people’s motives by the above.
It’s an inconvenient question for some but absolutely fair.

‘ “Would YOU prefer to live as a Jew or. Muslim in Israel?”’

That’s a more relevant question to the topic being discussed.

@GoingOnABarHunt The fight against apartheid isn’t a great example to bring up here because the freedom fighters in that situation went to great pains to never target civilian casualties. It was at the heart of everything Nelson Mandela stood for, and one of the reasons he broke with his wife Winnie - for her advocacy for political violence in certain circumstances.

And yet - they achieved a free election in South Africa. With Mandela as president.

So your post makes literally the opposite point from the one you think. Hamas is never, literally never, going to achieve freedom for the Palestinians. Nor is a Palestinian state their primary aim as others have said here. Their primary aim is the destruction of Israel and the murder of its citizens.

@Menoismymate
Can’t you answer both?

You say it yourself when you say ‘look at the political movement that ended apartheid’. That’s exactly the point - the ANC was a political movement, and Hamas is a terrorist organisation.

Well said @joanneg36
Hamas are not interested in settlement or peace and for that they also need to be held to account.

But you need to blame their leaders too,

That I definitely do. Like I said I don't really blame Israel for any of this, they're doing what they're gonna do and what pretty much any country in their position would do

I just never heard anyone say that they're fighting from a position that could ever be considered an equal footing before because most people aren't that deluded

@ Deep Thunking Girl The quote is from Peter Beinart, editor-at-large of Jewish Currents, professor of journalism and political science at the Newmark School of Journalism at the City University of New York, and author of The Beinart Notebook, a weekly newsletter.

Writing in The Guardian.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=iRYZjOuUnlU

A brief history of Israel - Palestine conflict. I’m sure most of you all know it but I think it’s a fair ( from what I’ve read ) account.

You said it yourself up thread that Russia, that great friend of Muslims everywhere from Chechnya to Afghanistan, are supporting the Iranians who support the Palestinians and why are they doing this? Because they hate Israel or because America have historically been in up to the hilt in Israel? It's a proxy war that America won a long time ago. The funding isn't a parity.

You're right though that there are billions of people that emotionally support the Palestinians, and it's true they get backing, but it's not the same as billions in military and technological aid going back decades

decolonizepalestine.com/

www.btselem.org/

@anemona

I sometimes think people who make these points about Israel are just incredibly ignorant or have never stopped to think about how most of the world works

I'm fully aware of how the world works and seen first hand the effects of genocide, discrimination and religious bigotry. I'm widely travelled, including to Palestine and Israel. I've studied history to degree level. I'm the child of a father who fought against Nazism. I'm far from ignorant. I'm neither Jewish or Muslim. I've no 'ethnic or religious' reason to have a one sided view on this humanitarian crisis. I'm Scottish.

Not sure what your 'credentials' are?

I can say - how can a rational and compassionate human being think that by saying effectively that ethnic discrimination happens elsewhere, it's excusable or should be allowed to be perpetrated.

The Israeli Government has broken International Law. It operates an Apartheid State. It's heavily funded by the USA, despite already having nuclear weapons, extensive natural resources and a heavily militarised community. It discriminates against Muslims. It seizes land from innocent citizens, forcing them from their homes and builds settlements for Jews alone. It blockades humanitarian aid to Gaza, most recently delaying Covid 19 Vaccination to the area. It has bombed refugee camps, schools and civilians claiming 'it knows where Hamas are hiding'. Really? Unless Hamas are made up of women and children it does not and us just bombing civilians on a 'pot luck' basis.

Don't claim superiority over people by calling them ignorant or slurring them as anti-Semitic. It won't shut people up!

@Xenia
You know very well that what caused this was not Hamas firing first- take a step back and look at the chain of events; the evictions, the shooting at worshippers whilst praying- Hamas fired AFTER all that

The media obviously picked when Hamas fired as the starting point- that's dangerous misinformation

@anemona please do not lump all muslims as Hamas sympathisers, that's really unfair- Many, many people despise them. The vast majority do. Fact.
Many muslims are the real victims of islamic extremism and terrorism, remember that.

@Chanjer

You said it yourself up thread that Russia, that great friend of Muslims everywhere from Chechnya to Afghanistan, are supporting the Iranians who support the Palestinians and why are they doing this? Because they hate Israel or because America have historically been in up to the hilt in Israel? It's a proxy war that America won a long time ago. The funding isn't a parity.

You're right though that there are billions of people that emotionally support the Palestinians, and it's true they get backing, but it's not the same as billions in military and technological aid going back decades

I agree that the US supports the Israelis financially, and without that the Israelis would be... dead.

Which I guess Hamas would be happy with. But I hope no-one on this thread would be.

I just don't agree with this portrayal of the David Palestinians fighting against the Goliath Israel. Anyone who's ever looked at a map knows how teeny tiny Israel is compared to the vast swathes of the globe covered by Muslim countries. Israel has no natural resources, no oil. It is dishonest about the relative power Israel enjoys compared to its enemies.