Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

@Diemme

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic. Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic

I think you'll find it is. Inflatable Jewish caricatures complete with big noses and horns at a pro Palestine demo in London.

Corbyn was speaking here. Thank god he is irrelevant once more.

@DeepThinkingGirl

StoneofDestiny

Antisemitism isn’t wrong because it is wrong to denigrate and dehumanise Jews. Antisemitism is wrong because it is wrong to denigrate and dehumanise anyone. Which means, ultimately, that any effort to fight antisemitism that contributes to the denigration and dehumanisation of Palestinians is no fight against antisemitism at all.

Where was this quote from?

The quotes you shared are so incredibly validating I have tears of relief rolling down.

I’m just glad, humanity is still out there.

I think most people would agree with that quote. But it works both ways. The fight for Palestinian rights which leads to antisemitism or the murder of Jews is also not a fight worth fighting.

Both Israelis and Palestinians are people who deserve to live in peace and safety.

But as to how to achieve that, what is needed are calm heads that see the other side as people, not as monsters.

@joanneg36 I mentioned South Africa because there is now a huge movement forming worldwide, with increasing pressure on the people in powerful positions. People are seeing in real time what is happening to Palestinian people and there is rightly uproar about it - this is most definitely a good thing regardless of someone’s views on the Israeli government.

@roarfeckingroarr did you read the replies on this thread to that post/photo?

I’d just like to highlight that @anemona has accused all of the world’s Muslims supporting terrorism (15:54 post)

So despite the constant accusations of anti-Semitism coming from those who are justifying the continuing oppression of Palestinians, they have felt completely justified to throw a racist, islamophobic and completely fictitious comment into the mix.

Do you not see your own hypocrisy and bigotry?

Can you suggest, a credible source for human rights and international law monitoring that would agree with your objective morality ? And not have any bias towards any sides of the conflict?

Offhand no - i think they are often full of like minded people where only certain views are acceptable- bit like a club. Then there are the abuses by staff that have been uncovered b

"I think you'll find it is. Inflatable Jewish caricatures complete with big noses and horns at a pro Palestine demo in London."

This!!!

*You know very well that what caused this was not Hamas firing first- take a step back and look at the chain of events; the evictions, the shooting at worshippers whilst praying- Hamas fired AFTER all that

The media obviously picked when Hamas fired as the starting point- that's dangerous misinformation*

But still Hamas fired those 1000s (some killing their own children and civilians) knowing that Israel would strongly retaliate

There are problems on both sides.

It's not antisemitic to criticise the state of Israel.

@SmiledWithTheRisingSun

"I think you'll find it is. Inflatable Jewish caricatures complete with big noses and horns at a pro Palestine demo in London."

This!!!

It’s been said MANY times but that’s actually Mohamed bin Zayad, nicknamed “Satan of the Arabs”.

Caricatures of Jews at pro Palestinian rallies?

It’s been said MANY times but that’s actually Mohamed bin Zayad, nicknamed “Satan of the Arabs

Exactly - how to twist something and convince halfwits to scream anti semitism.

The effigy was of the ruler of the United Arab Emirates, an Arab man.
The reaching to minimise what is happening to Palestinians gets more desperate by the day.

I just know that many are sending that photo around and labelling it anti Semitic without a second thought as well. Why would you see an image of someone’s face and jump to conclusions without even doing a basic search of who the person is in the image first?!

[quote GoingOnABarHunt]@anemona yes, a lot of shit has happened in the world, nobody is denying that, but it doesn’t mean people just give up to make things ‘easier’. Look at the huge political movement that helped end apartheid in South Africa. If Algeria didn’t retaliate it would still be under French rule. People have always fought for what is right, and will always continue to do so.[/quote]
I think that's naive.

As others have pointed out, S Africa succeeded in ending apartheid only BECAUSE it foreswore violence. Ditto India. I think if both Gandhi and Mandela had gone for years of raining down rockets on their opponents they would be less likely to have been successful.

And yes, lots of battles are left. After WWII, the border with Poland was moved West, and Prussia, historically German, became Polish overnight. The Germans who lived there had to leave the homes they'd lived in for hundreds of years and move west, into Germany. Of course that was sad for them. But no-one now seriously suggests Germany should fire rockets at Poland to get the territory back. Borders move. Always have done. Look at any map from 50 or 100 years ago.

I suppose I am sanguine about this because I am the child of refugees. I know how commonplace that is. This romanticising of the position of the Palestinians as though they were the only refugees in the world and as though everyone else in the world still tilled the same fields their great-grandfather did always seems rather bizarre. I don't know anyone who still lives in the same place their ancestors did. My dh is English, his family were from Hulme. It all got knocked down in slum clearances! They got moved out. It happens. What makes the Palestinian situation so unique that they can't possibly accept it over 70 years later? Yes, they loved their homes. So did we all.

Exactly. Peace always precedes a political settlement. No political cause in the world had ever convinced a government and/or world opinion by murdering civilians.

And for the 100th time, saying ‘the effigy was MBZ’ really isn’t the ‘gotcha’ you think it is. It is saying ‘Israel is funded by evil devils’ - that is still anti-Semitic, just for a different reason.

I suppose I am sanguine about this because I am the child of refugees. I know how commonplace that is. This romanticising of the position of the Palestinians as though they were the only refugees in the world and as though everyone else in the world still tilled the same fields their great-grandfather did always seems rather bizarre. I don't know anyone who still lives in the same place their ancestors did. My dh is English, his family were from Hulme. It all got knocked down in slum clearances! They got moved out. It happens. What makes the Palestinian situation so unique that they can't possibly accept it over 70 years later? Yes, they loved their homes. So did we all.

That's desperate. Slum clearance in Hume, Manchester led to people being given new homes and better living conditions! It was done on the authority of their own an Elected Government and carried out by their own elected Local Councils.

How you can even compare that to land grabbing from and eviction of Palestinian people beggars belief.

'I just know that many are sending that photo around and labelling it anti Semitic without a second thought as well. Why would you see an image of someone’s face and jump to conclusions without even doing a basic search of who the person is in the image first?!'

Because they're jumping at any excuse to find something to defend the indefensible.

@joanneg36

You say it yourself when you say ‘look at the political movement that ended apartheid’. That’s exactly the point - the ANC was a political movement, and Hamas is a terrorist organisation.

Except that like the Mau Mau, the ANC were widely regarded as and labelled terrorists until they had won. Or as Wikipedia puts it: "Members of Mau Mau are currently recognised by the Kenyan Government as freedom-independence heroes and heroines who sacrificed their lives in order to free Kenyans from colonial rule." Victors write the histories.

I am unsure what these "other people were/are terrorists so these people are as well" and "but what about x y z other country" arguments are doing to help the suffering of the Palestinian civilians happening at this moment, or add to any debate about how the killing can be halted, mind.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime I’m well aware that the ANC were branded terrorists but they were not terrorists - they explicitly avoided killing innocent civilians. Hamas do not do this. They are terrorists. Hope that clears things up.

@SmiledWithTheRisingSun

"I think you'll find it is. Inflatable Jewish caricatures complete with big noses and horns at a pro Palestine demo in London."

This!!!

Shame it was an inflatable caricature of the ruler of the UAE, really. In an Arab headdress.

So not particularly anti-Jewish, on the whole.

My dh is English, his family were from Hulme. It all got knocked down in slum clearances! They got moved out. It happens. What makes the Palestinian situation so unique that they can't possibly accept it over 70 years later? Yes, they loved their homes. So did we all.

Hulme

I’m at a bit off a loss for words but... why don’t you want better for Palestinians? You can fight for change, you know? People don’t have to go through the same hardships, lessons can be learned. Governments can be held accountable, this is happening as we speak and it can end. It’s not impossible, humans can have equal rights and harsh consequences can be faced (as also seen throughout history).

[quote joanneg36]@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime I’m well aware that the ANC were branded terrorists but they were not terrorists - they explicitly avoided killing innocent civilians. Hamas do not do this. They are terrorists. Hope that clears things up.[/quote]
Well, no, not really; we are conjured to take an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, not twenty-five plus for one.

anemona
Just to clarify, by the way, in 2020, there were an astonishing ZERO UN Resoutions criticising China. Imprisoning 2 million Uighars in concentration camps does not merit a UN Resolution. Russia got none either. Nor did Saudi.

That might be because the five permanent members of the UN Security Council (China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States) can veto any resolution. So ones about the ethnic cleansing in China are probably vetoed by the Chinese, and ones about similar behaviour in Russia by the Russians. And my bet would be that the USA vetoed ones about Saudi, though I haven't checked.

There is a lot of weight resting on unproven claims. Eg the poster who was trying to tell me that there were hardly any Jews living in Israel pre-1948, and it was nearly all Muslims who'd been there for hundreds of years.

Well, the Guardian has an article today with an Armenian woman in Sheikh Jarrah, whose family only moved there in 1915. She's Armenian. She has no longer-terms links to the country whatsoever. She says her family arrived in 1915 as refugees from Armenia. Which is fair enough. But she's hardly indigenous to Israel/Palestine.

The claim that everyone in Israel who isn't Jewish is indigenous Palestinian is unproven and seems somewhat unlikely.

I understand why the Palestinians feel as they do but they make the choices they do - often at their own cost hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-03-10/debates/C9D591A4-1B68-4D6B-8AD3-5BBC90398051/PalestinianSchoolCurriculumRadicalisation