Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

I didn't day it didn't apply to anyone - there are, unfortunately, far too many examples of the world of ethnic cleansing.
Doesn't make this one any less wrong .

So where are your threads about this? Where all the protest marches about the Hindus forced to leave the homes their families had lived in for centuries to create the new ethno-state of Pakistan?

*Does it?

Who do you think backs Hamas? And who do you think backs them?

And do you think oil-rich Middle Eastern countries have no money or power?

We can both pose the questions.*

Yeah of course it makes a difference. Saudi aside Israel is on relatively friendly, for recent times anyway, terms with UAE, Jordan, Bahrain and other key players in the Arab/Muslim world. If I was going to get backed by a side I'd prefer whichever one America is on instead of 40 odd failed states and an oil rich one or 2.

I don't blame Israel really for doing what they're doing, they're in a tough place and they're not gonna back down but I think your above comment is fairly disingenuous

Do you advocate I fire rockets at Berlin till they give me back my family's home?

Is that actually the best way to proceed?

Would the world be a happier place if India and Pakistan started large scale wars every few years to get back their lost property?

Why are people who refuse to completely blame or completely condemn israel being repeatedly accused of deflecting, gaslighting and of trying to shut down discussion/the thread etc

It’s so dishonest

You must realise, it’s because, this thread is about support for human rights of Palestinians . And while we are responding to your post, we are simultaneously watching the news about children being horrifically murdered by the minute..

When there is a pressing issue of human rights in this way at present, and people want to talk about their feelings instead, or about the history, or about the weather.. or about whataboutery..

Then that translates to “the humans being violated right now aren’t important for my focus ”

Not recognising the current tragedy and being dismissive is apathetic.

Sometimes our conversations might deflect naturally to history and politics. But if that’s the only side of the argument you want to engage in, then it’s being addressed by you for the wrong purpose.

The purpose of this thread is to support Palestinian human rights which the international community recognised are being violated. That’s totally independent from your views on the suffering of the Israelis.

Trying to excuse the suffering of Palestinian as legitimate collateral damage to further flourish a Jewish state so other people can feel like they have a Jewish state is not appropriate. It’s utterly insensitive.

There is a parallel thread about a Jewish women in the U.K., feeling scared due to the thugs who’s threatened rape..

If I am on that thread spouting the whataboutery shit and justifying wirh politics and using the suffering of the Palestinians to trump her suffering.. that’s basically saying “Palestinian lives are more important than yours”.

That’s racist. And won’t be tolerated.

So we don’t need to tolerate anyone dismissing and minimising Palestinians as anything but equal humans.

Hope that helps.

The outcomes considering the numbers involved suggest it's fairly one sided, in terms of power at least, no?

6 days to turn over the entire region? And they could all try again whenever they wanted and the result would be the same

Like I said I don't blame Israel for fighting back, I don't agree with all their policies in the region but see it for what it is

I’m so glad @anemona is here making excellent points. The anti Israel/Jew attitudes on here are shameful.

The anti Israel/Jew attitudes on here are shameful.

Which one is it? Anti Israel or anti Jew? Because they’re seperate things.

I would like @anemona to go into politics.
It would be so refreshing.
Question time would be fantastic.

@Theluggage15

I’m so glad *@anemona* is here making excellent points. The anti Israel/Jew attitudes on here are shameful.

Where is anyone being anti-Jew? The only people on this thread conflating the Israeli government and Judaism are pro-Israelis or Jews themselves.

So Human Rights Watch are anti semites. I’ve heard it all now

Every criticism of the Israeli Government on here is considered anti Semitic by some posters. They don't seem able to divide 'Jew or Jewish'' from 'Israeli Government'. It's the longest distraction and diversion tactic going - failing miserably with most of us.

@StoneofDestiny

So Human Rights Watch are anti semites. I’ve heard it all now

Every criticism of the Israeli Government on here is considered anti Semitic by some posters. They don't seem able to divide 'Jew or Jewish'' from 'Israeli Government'. It's the longest distraction and diversion tactic going - failing miserably with most of us.

This is my point - pro-Palestinian posters seem to be able to separate Judaism and the Israeli government with ease but are the ones being called anti Semitic? How does that work?

Amnesty International
Higazi, Deputy Director for the Middle East and North Africa at Amnesty International, said:

“The latest violence brings into sharp focus Israel’s sustained campaign to expand illegal Israeli settlements and step-up forced evictions of Palestinian residents - such as those in Sheikh Jarrah - to make way for Israeli settlers. These forced evictions are part of a continuing pattern in Sheikh Jarrah, they flagrantly violate international law and would amount to war crimes

“Israel must not be allowed to continue its rampage against Palestinians who are simply defending their right to exist and protesting against their forced displacement

“As an immediate step we call on the United Nations Security Council members to convene an open session and for the Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process to brief member states.”

@GoingOnABarHunt
I think it has been explained quite well. Have you really not noticed any conflation of the two? I find that hard to believe.

Maybe look around mumsnet today and see what else is going on...

At least 192 people, including 58 children and 34 women, have been killed in the Gaza Strip since the latest violence began a week ago.

Israel has reported 10 dead, including two children

@anemona

Do you advocate I fire rockets at Berlin till they give me back my family's home?

Is that actually the best way to proceed?

Would the world be a happier place if India and Pakistan started large scale wars every few years to get back their lost property?

Yes, this is exactly my point from somewhere upthread.

We don't see grandchildren of Jews displaced from European and Muslim countries living in refugee camps and firing rockets at their former cities, while their children live in futureless poverty.

Moreover, let me tell you - we don't see many West bank Palestinians or Israeli Palestinian citizens, or Palestinians living elsewhere in the world engaging in terror either.

This is because to engage in terror you need to be desperate and see no future fo yourself.

So instead of blaming Israel, would it not be more humane if try and help the most disadvantages Palestinians - those in Gaza and those in refugee camps - to see a better future? Hint - it won''t come by shooting more rockets at Israel...

I don’t trust amnesty to be a fair and unbiased observer as shown by their recent attempt to shut down free speech and representation for women in Ireland

'The anti Israel/Jew attitudes on here are shameful.'

Being 'anti Jew" is anti semitic and I'm not seeing that here.
Being against the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government is a completely different thing. But there are posters on here who see ANY criticism of the Israeli government as a criticism of the Jewish faith and they will never see it any differently.

@Theluggage15

I’m so glad *@anemona* is here making excellent points. The anti Israel/Jew attitudes on here are shameful.

Oh dear yet again someone who doesn’t understand the difference between criticism of the Israeli Government actions and anti semitism. It’s been explained time and time again, is it really that difficult?

@Blackberrycream I’m flitting in and out of this thread at work and haven’t looked elsewhere but honestly, the only times I’ve seen Judaism and the Israeli gov conflated is by Jewish posters or by people who support the actions of Israel and label people opposing them anti-Semitic.

The Palestinians fired first. They knew what to expect. They won't try it again. They were foolish.

David Harris, head of the American Jewish Committee, put it last year: “To deny the Jewish people, of all the peoples on earth, the right to self-determination surely is discriminatory.”

All the peoples on earth? The Kurds don’t have their own state. Neither do the Basques, Catalans, Scots, Kashmiris, Tibetans, Abkhazians, Ossetians, Lombards, Igbo, Oromo, Uyghurs, Tamils and Québécois, nor dozens of other peoples who have created nationalist movements to seek self-determination but failed to achieve it

Yet barely anyone suggests that opposing a Kurdish or Catalan state makes you an anti-Kurdish or anti-Catalan bigot. It is widely recognised that states based on ethnic nationalism – states created to represent and protect one particular ethnic group – are not the only legitimate way to ensure public order and individual freedom. Sometimes it is better to foster civic nationalism, a nationalism built around borders rather than heritage: to make Spanish identity more inclusive of Catalans or Iraqi identity more inclusive of Kurds, rather than carving those multiethnic states up

You’d think Jewish leaders would understand this. You’d think they would understand it because many of the same Jewish leaders who call national self-determination a universal right are quite comfortable denying it to Palestinians.
The Guardian

@Xenia

The Palestinians fired first. They knew what to expect. They won't try it again. They were foolish.

Nice try.

BBC - 200 Palestinians now confirmed as killed, 59 of them children. 10 Israelis died.

'200 people have now been killed in Israeli strikes since the hostilities between Palestinian militants and Israel began a week ago.

A statement adds that 59 children and 35 women are among the dead, and that 1,305 other people have been injured."