Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

[quote Acidburn]@anemona I absolutely love how all these human right advocates are completely silent about the fact that Israelis are not allowed to enter most of the muslim countries. They will never start a debate in a calmer time about "it's outrageous that a regular Israeli not allowed to travel to Malaysia because of some political bullshit, lets discuss how unfair that is", but they would jump onto any opportunity to express their views in regards to Palestinians situation.[/quote]
Yep

'Are you really unaware that Human Rights Watch are indeed regularly criticised for a selective anti-Israel bias?'

They're regularly criticised by anyone they write reports on. As is Amnesty International, the Red Cross, and pretty much any NGO who criticise a country or government for human rights breaches.

Doesn't mean they're wrong...

Expecting Israel to be 'better' because it is a democracy is racist.

I expect any country that is a democracy to have higher standards of human rights,. That’s a ridiculous rationale on which to accuse anyone of being racist.

It is racist towards Jews to expect the world's only Jewish State to be perfect and it is racist to accept corruption and poor human rights as unquestioned in surrounding Arab states

No one is expecting Israel to be perfect. No country in the world is perfect..

@Yawnattack i do not support the actions of Israeli govein many ways. Including but not limited to land grabbing, current leader, house evictions. I despise stupid teens in IDF who post anti Palestinian bullshit in their social media, because it underminds the entire negotiation process for everybody. I have repeatedly said many many times that every Palestinian deserve the right for education, healthcare, and absolutely doesn't deserve the current living conditions.
At the same time I believe Israeli Government has no choice but to do what they are doing right now because of Hamas. They have an obligation to protect its citizens no matter what. Anyone suggesting that due to having the Iron Dome all the missiles automatically become "symbolic" - is a moron, who I kindly invite to live there for a week. Yesterday one of those "symbolic" missiles hit a house with a disabled person inside, who due to being in a wheelchair couldn't run to the bomb shelter. Is his life less precious than a Palestinian?
Israel is the only Jewish state in the world. There are a dozen muslim ones. A regular Israeli gets assaulted by Palestinian extremists a few times a year - I am talking from my experience, my family's experience, my friend's experience. We are not allowed to travel to Muslim countries, we are constantly reminded that we "stole someones land", which is a massive simplification of the facts, because we were inhabiting that land before Jesus was born! We have been through Holocaust, for fucks sake. Yeelsterday was a clear indication that antisemitism is alive in this country, and unfortunately not only here. But none of that apparently matters, the onpy thing that matters is that Israel doesn't want to back off in a never ending war with the terrorists.
Once again - I do not agree with many things that Israeli Govt does. But I do believe that in current circumstances it does the best it can for me, for my family, and for all Israelis.

@anemona

The figures regarding demographics of population of Palestine / Israel can be found easily. However here is a link to one set
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

I plotted these figures on Excel and attached the graph. The impact of the Nakba on the non-Jewish population in 1948 is quite stark.

So to be clear, this is my chart, but uses cut and paste data from the Jewish Virtual Library which can be accessed via the link above. I only removed the 1939 figure as there is missing data. So I believe the source of data is reputable. (I didn't plot pre 1882 but the % Jewish population was even lower before this according to these figures)

@anemona
I just wanted to say your posts on here are great and giving much needed balance.

@GoingOnABarHunt

It’s not goodies vs baddies, which I agree is very infantile. It’s oppressor vs the oppressed. Apartheid. Human rights abuses. Genocide. Massacre. Ethnic cleansing.

Creating a narrative for both sides in cases of oppression is always, without exception, for the benefit of the oppressor. “But this, but that” STOP. Open your eyes to what is happening right now, it is very clear to see and social media has shone a light on what is happening, and what has been happening for decades, more than ever before.

Other countries are frequently called out on their human rights abuses - the reason Israel is such a major issue is because instead of being condemned, it’s being backed and justified by many. That happened with South Africa too btw, right to the very bitter end - because it was in the best interests of some to do so.

I am glad that you agree that we should be looking at the situation from a wider geopolitical lens, and identifying all the ethnic cleansing, genocide, apartheid, human rights abuses and massacres going on.

It might help to consider, as you have claimed that only Israel is 'backed by so many', what the relative picture looks like in a wider sense.

Israel has a population of around 9.2 million, of which around 6.7 million, or c 75% are Jewish. Arabs (which includes Christian as well as Muslim Arabs) make up around 20%, and the remaining 5% are mixed.

The global Jewish population is around 14 million.

That figure is still lower than it was in 1939, thanks to the Holocaust, which murdered 2/3 of European Jews in under 6 years.

By comparison, there are 1.5 billion Muslims globally, or over 100 X as many Muslims as there are Jews. Since 1948, the number if Palestinians has gone up by 500%. Which is quite impressive, for a group of people that is claimed to have experienced genocide. Certainly one of the less successful genocides.

There is only 1 Jewish state, and no other state where Jews are a majority. For example, in the UK, Jews make up 0.4% of the population.

By comparison, there are 49 Muslim majority countries. Many practice Sharia law and in many, non-Muslims, if they can live there at all, are treated legally as second-class citizens.

There have been a number of inter-Muslim massacres and genocides. Human rights abuses against LGBT people and women are unfortunately common. Try being an Iranian woman who wants to show her hair or a Saudi woman who wants a normal life.

Anyway, I'll leave it to you to decide who you think has more backers, globally - Israel, with its Jewish population of under 7 million and a global Jewish population of 14 million, or the Palestinians, supported by 1.5 billion Muslims, across 49 countries?

But sure, it's a real David and Goliath struggle, and Israel is the Goliath here, in your head.

@Menoismymate

'Are you really unaware that Human Rights Watch are indeed regularly criticised for a selective anti-Israel bias?'

They're regularly criticised by anyone they write reports on. As is Amnesty International, the Red Cross, and pretty much any NGO who criticise a country or government for human rights breaches.

Doesn't mean they're wrong...

Read the article I linked to by Matti Friedman. Strongly recommend it.

I'll upload a link to another in a minute.

He worked for the AP in Israel for many years and has written astonishingly about the way the news agenda is fixed in the region.

Calling out racism is racist. I've heard it all now.

@anemona Massive respect for your posts on here and for having the patience to keep returning to explain this in a way that I am unfortunately now out of patience to do.

The question you've asked about 'where would you rather live, Israel or any other Arab state?' is one that will literally never be honestly answered on any so-called progressive forum 'debating' this topic.

@CounsellorTroi

Expecting Israel to be 'better' because it is a democracy is racist.

I expect any country that is a democracy to have higher standards of human rights,. That’s a ridiculous rationale on which to accuse anyone of being racist.

That's ridiculous.

According to that logic, if Israel were to become a dictatorship, you would not then feel the need to question its actions because only democracies have expectations attached.

‘ The question you've asked about 'where would you rather live, Israel or any other Arab state?' is one that will literally never be honestly answered on any so-called progressive forum 'debating' this topic.’

Neither. That’s the easiest question to answer on here.

*CounsellorTroi
Expecting Israel to be 'better' because it is a democracy is racist.

I expect any country that is a democracy to have higher standards of human rights,. That’s a ridiculous rationale on which to accuse anyone of being racist.
That's ridiculous.

According to that logic, if Israel were to become a dictatorship, you would not then feel the need to question its actions because only democracies have expectations attached.

More ridiculousness and twisting of my words. Of course I’d still question the actions of the Israeli Government if it were a dictatorship.

Of course not only democracies have their human rights records questioned.

Anyway, I'll leave it to you to decide who you think has more backers, globally - Israel, with its Jewish population of under 7 million and a global Jewish population of 14 million, or the Palestinians, supported by 1.5 billion Muslims, across 49 countries?

Does the world stage power of the relative backers not make a difference?

@anemona

You asked me to justify the figures of my earlier post. I did you this courtesy and presented substantiation of these figures in my previous post.

I just wondered if you would be prepared to concede my figures were correct? (Other than I said 5% for “late 19th century” and the above sourced specified 8% in 1882.)

The Christian population is also a substantial minority - Arabs make up over 85% of the Palestine population in 1890 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

Blackberrycream
@anemona
I just wanted to say your posts on here are great and giving much needed balance.

Yes, well said anemona

I’d prefer not to live in a country where religious extremist hold such power and that’s comes from someone from Northern Ireland. So I know what I’m talking about.

@Chanjer

Anyway, I'll leave it to you to decide who you think has more backers, globally - Israel, with its Jewish population of under 7 million and a global Jewish population of 14 million, or the Palestinians, supported by 1.5 billion Muslims, across 49 countries?

Does the world stage power of the relative backers not make a difference?

Does it?

Who do you think backs Hamas? And who do you think backs them?

And do you think oil-rich Middle Eastern countries have no money or power?

We can both pose the questions.

Great posts @anemona thank you

@CounsellorTroi

*CounsellorTroi Expecting Israel to be 'better' because it is a democracy is racist.

I expect any country that is a democracy to have higher standards of human rights,. That’s a ridiculous rationale on which to accuse anyone of being racist.
That's ridiculous.

According to that logic, if Israel were to become a dictatorship, you would not then feel the need to question its actions because only democracies have expectations attached.

More ridiculousness and twisting of my words. Of course I’d still question the actions of the Israeli Government if it were a dictatorship.

Of course not only democracies have their human rights records questioned.

Good.

Strange how I haven't seen you questioning the human rights records of any of those attacking Israel then.

As you will doubtless know, Hamas is funded and supplied with weapons by Iran.

Do Hamas and Iran have spotless human rights records then?

Are you not ashamed and embarrassed to be pretending that Israel's opponents are all angels with no human rights concerns??

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@anemona

You asked me to justify the figures of my earlier post. I did you this courtesy and presented substantiation of these figures in my previous post.

I just wondered if you would be prepared to concede my figures were correct? (Other than I said 5% for “late 19th century” and the above sourced specified 8% in 1882.)

The Christian population is also a substantial minority - Arabs make up over 85% of the Palestine population in 1890 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)[/quote]
Strangely, I prefer to check figures before agreeing to them and to compare sources. I was also interested in sources that went back beyond 1500. Given Jews have been in Israel for thousands of years.

I am not a full-time MN poster so yes, I'll return when I feel able to comment more fully.

The region around Jerusalem has been volatile for Millennia. It's been built, destroyed and rebuilt numerous times, it has been in the hands of many different groups of people. In all probability the Jewish people probably do have a prior claim to the land than Muslims, historically.

I have no idea how many people have died for control of the region but it must be massive. It all seems such a waste of life.

I don't have any solutions but I know that every human being deserves to live a peaceful life and I feel bad for anyone who cannot. Israeli or Palestinian, who's right, who's wrong, it needs to stop.

Of all the articles I've ever read on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, this is the one I most recommend. It totally blew my mind when I first read it, when it went viral 7 years ago, during the last big outbreak of violence in the region.

Read it - it will forever change how you think about what is reported about the situation.

www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide