Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

I don't think you have the right to complain about your country/government being accused of apartheid when they're guilty of actually creating apartheid.

This from April:

'An international rights watchdog accused Israel on Tuesday of pursuing policies of apartheid and persecution against Palestinians - and against its own Arab minority - that amount to crimes against humanity.

New York-based Human Rights Watch published a 213-page report which, it said, was not aimed at comparing Israel with apartheid-era South Africa but rather at assessing "whether specific acts and policies" constitute apartheid as defined under international law.'

@Adventureswith

Apartheid is now a legally recognized crime against humanity - see below, HRW, but you'll find many other references to the use if the word now outside of the SA context. I don't have any issue with using the word where it seems that the definition fits.

"The international community has over the years detached the term apartheid from its original South African context, developed a universal legal prohibition against its practice, and recognized it as a crime against humanity with definitions provided in the 1973 International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (“Apartheid Convention”) and the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC).

The State of Palestine is a state party to both the Rome Statute and the Apartheid Convention. In February 2021, the ICC ruled that it has jurisdiction over serious international crimes committed in the entirety of the OPT, including East Jerusalem, which would include the crimes against humanity of apartheid or persecution committed in that territory. In March 2021, the ICC Office of Prosecutor announced the opening of a formal investigation into the situation in Palestine.'

By any definition of Apartheid, most Muslim Middle Eastern countries surrounding Israel operate it.

Many have completely ethnically cleansed their Jewish populations. Jews are forbidden entry to many of these countries. Non-Muslims are second-class citizens in many of these countries if allowed to live there at all.

I would rather live as an Israeli Arab than as a Jew in any of the surrounding Muslim countries. And those claiming Israel is an Apartheid State would all choose the same. And that's before we bring other human rights abuses into it. Where would you rather be a woman, say, or where would you rather be gay? Fancy being a woman in Saudi or Israel? Fancy being gay in Iran or Israel? I can guess.

Suggesting that Israel has uniquely poor human rights while ignoring the human rights abuses of its neighbours doesn't make you sound like someone who cares about human rights.

It makes you sound like someone who hates Jews.

If you care about the lives of the 200 Palestinians killed in this most recent conflict with Israel, but have stayed silent about the 4000 Palestinians killed very recently by Assad's forces in Syria, because you can't use their deaths to attack Israel, you are a hypocrite and an antisemite.

Yes, Netanyahu's government is guilty of reducing Palestinian rights. But that does not mean that we can just ignore the fact that Hamas and the PA are worse. Or that Israel's neighbours are as bad or worse.

It's this seeking for goodies v baddies which is so infantile and ultimately counterproductive. All the leaders are corrupt. This should not be blamed on the ordinary people in each state, who may not support those leaders.

[quote Acidburn]@BFrazzled they are not Israeli solders. They are dumb religious fanatics, that no one likes, not even Israelis.[/quote]
Like all those illegal settlers, you mean?

[quote GoingOnABarHunt]Israel is an apartheid state.

Throughout most of this area, Israel is the sole governing power; in the remainder, it exercises primary authority alongside limited Palestinian self-rule. Across these areas and in most aspects of life, Israeli authorities methodically privilege Jewish Israelis and discriminate against Palestinians. Laws, policies, and statements by leading Israeli officials make plain that the objective of maintaining Jewish Israeli control over demographics, political power, and land has long guided government policy. In pursuit of this goal, authorities have dispossessed, confined, forcibly separated, and subjugated Palestinians by virtue of their identity to varying degrees of intensity. In certain areas, as described in this report, these deprivations are so severe that they amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution.

www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

And many South Africans are, understandably, absolutely disgusted by the actions of the Israeli government:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogkbe4AuuMY[/quote]
And you can replace the word Israel in your piece with the name of any of Israel's neighbours, and the name of Palestinians with Jews or Christians or other minorities and it would still be true.

Your point is?

Also, rather sick to bring S African Apartheid into it without noting all the civil rights leaders who supported Mandela who were Jewish! But I guess they don't mention that in the intro to antisemitism course you appear to have been enrolled on.

@anemona I absolutely love how all these human right advocates are completely silent about the fact that Israelis are not allowed to enter most of the muslim countries. They will never start a debate in a calmer time about "it's outrageous that a regular Israeli not allowed to travel to Malaysia because of some political bullshit, lets discuss how unfair that is", but they would jump onto any opportunity to express their views in regards to Palestinians situation.

@KaptainKaveman i think i saw your face in one of the cars driving down the Finchley Road yesterday.

I mean, you have to be deeply stupid and fanatic to believe that it's OK to turf people out of their farms and homes and steal their land because the Bible told you to The settlers are waging their own 'Holy War' aren't they? conquering their 'enemy' to reclaim what God said was theirs? how lunatic. And people call Hamas 'terrorists'. .

'It makes you sound like someone who hates Jews.'

It does? Well, I don't. I have both Jewish AND Israeli friends. Yelling 'anti-semitism' every time someone criticises the actions of the Israeli authorities doesn't work anymore.

Trust you to trivialise the issue Acidburn. I think everyone on this board knows your agenda.

It’s not goodies vs baddies, which I agree is very infantile. It’s oppressor vs the oppressed. Apartheid. Human rights abuses. Genocide. Massacre. Ethnic cleansing.

Creating a narrative for both sides in cases of oppression is always, without exception, for the benefit of the oppressor. “But this, but that” STOP. Open your eyes to what is happening right now, it is very clear to see and social media has shone a light on what is happening, and what has been happening for decades, more than ever before.

Other countries are frequently called out on their human rights abuses - the reason Israel is such a major issue is because instead of being condemned, it’s being backed and justified by many. That happened with South Africa too btw, right to the very bitter end - because it was in the best interests of some to do so.

@Acidburn I do think what's going on in OPT is a little but more serious than not being able to go on holiday in Malaysia, ( tho I know it's a pain in the arse travelling on an Israeli passport in some regions, or a USA one too as it happens) so I'm definitely less upset about that than Amnesty's assessment of the current situation:

'ISRAEL AND OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES 2020
Israel continued to impose institutionalized discrimination against Palestinians living under its rule in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). It displaced hundreds of Palestinians in Israel and the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as a result of home demolitions and imposition of other coercive measures. Israeli forces continued to use excessive force during law enforcement activities in Israel and the OPT. Israeli forces killed 31 Palestinians, including nine children, in the OPT; many were unlawfully killed while posing no imminent threat to life. Israel maintained its illegal blockade on the Gaza Strip, subjecting its residents to collective punishment and deepening the humanitarian crisis there. It also continued to restrict freedom of movement of Palestinians in the OPT through checkpoints and roadblocks. The Israeli authorities arbitrarily detained in Israel thousands of Palestinians from the OPT, holding hundreds in administrative detention without charge or trial. Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees, including children, were committed with impunity. The authorities used a range of measures to target human rights defenders, journalists and others who criticized Israel’s continuing occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Syrian Golan Heights. Violence against women persisted, especially against Palestinian citizens of Israel. The authorities denied asylum-seekers access to a fair or prompt refugee status determination process. Conscientious objectors to military service were imprisoned.'

So Human Rights Watch are anti semites. I’ve heard it all now.

And re this

I absolutely love how all these human right advocates are completely silent about the fact that Israelis are not allowed to enter most of the muslim countries.

The Israeli Government has designated most of the surrounding Muslim countries as “enemy states” and forbids its citizens from travelling there without a special permit from the Interior Ministry. So it’s not all one way.

[quote Acidburn]@anemona I absolutely love how all these human right advocates are completely silent about the fact that Israelis are not allowed to enter most of the muslim countries. They will never start a debate in a calmer time about "it's outrageous that a regular Israeli not allowed to travel to Malaysia because of some political bullshit, lets discuss how unfair that is", but they would jump onto any opportunity to express their views in regards to Palestinians situation.[/quote]
What really makes me angry is that I genuinely feel for ordinary Palestinians, who undoubtedly have a dreadful time of it.

But they have been let down again and again by those professing to care about them who couldn't care less about the corruption of their leaders - who refuse to allow any elections, and steal the money meant for their aid.

These self-professed pro-Palestinians turn a blind eye to the fact that large Palestinian communities in other Muslim countries are deprived of rights and are second-class citizens. And in Syria, 4000 were murdered. But these Westerners who claim to care about Palestinian rights say NOTHING about these abuses - either because they don't bother to research and are unaware of them, or because it suits them to keep the Palestinians oppressed, so they can usefully be used as a pawn to attack Israel.

It's geopolitics at its worst. Ordinary Palestinians are the victims in all of this.

Jews for Justice for Palestinians
jfjfp.com/

@Menoismymate

'It makes you sound like someone who hates Jews.'

It does? Well, I don't. I have both Jewish AND Israeli friends. Yelling 'anti-semitism' every time someone criticises the actions of the Israeli authorities doesn't work anymore.

Stupid comment, given that in my post I explicitly criticised...the actions of the Israeli authorities.

What is antisemitic isn't criticising the actions of the Israeli authorities. It is deliberately lying and presenting a view in which all the blame lies with the Israeli authorities and everyone else is an angel.

This goodies and baddies version of history is infantile and helps resolve nothing. It is politics for fools.

@Acidburn if that is true and I will take your word for it I would be interested in reading or contributing a thread on that topic.

Your phrasing almost suggests to me that because Israeli people are treated poorly elsewhere the current actions of this Israeli government are acceptable.

Do you perhaps mean they are understandable or do you consider the current actions of this Israeli government acceptable?

Other countries are frequently called out on their human rights abuses - the reason Israel is such a major issue is because instead of being condemned, it’s being backed and justified by many. That happened with South Africa too btw, right to the very bitter end - because it was in the best interests of some to do so.

And also because Israel is a democracy and we expect democracies to know better.

Other countries are frequently called out on their human rights abuses - the reason Israel is such a major issue is because instead of being condemned, it’s being backed and justified by many. That happened with South Africa too btw, right to the very bitter end - because it was in the best interests of some to do so.

And also because Israel is a democracy and we expect democracies to know better.'

Yup, it's always harder to swallow when a democracy ( and the US is guikty of this too) try to present themselves as 'moral' or a role model of some sort while committing human rights violations.

@CounsellorTroi

So Human Rights Watch are anti semites. I’ve heard it all now.

And re this

I absolutely love how all these human right advocates are completely silent about the fact that Israelis are not allowed to enter most of the muslim countries.

The Israeli Government has designated most of the surrounding Muslim countries as “enemy states” and forbids its citizens from travelling there without a special permit from the Interior Ministry. So it’s not all one way.

Are you really unaware that Human Rights Watch are indeed regularly criticised for a selective anti-Israel bias?

Look at their Wiki page or read this link for more details:

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/3/

@anemona thank you for your contributions on this thread. It can't be easy to speak out and I have found your posts very interesting, informative, well-informed and provide much needed perspective and clarity. It is good to be able to cut through the anti-Israel bias/propaganda and actually see some clear facts.

Many people conveniently forget that Jews were in the land and existed long before the other Abrahamic religions . The fact they became the minority group does not legitimise erasing historical facts.

Before anyone jumps all over me - I don't think this fact justifies treating people unfairly but it is crucial not to rewrite history to suit our own narrative.

Thank you

@anemona

Indeed I agree on your posts above.

Interesting that many Arab countries treat their people extremely badly but generally ignored.

[quote goingforaschmy]@anemona thank you for your contributions on this thread. It can't be easy to speak out and I have found your posts very interesting, informative, well-informed and provide much needed perspective and clarity. It is good to be able to cut through the anti-Israel bias/propaganda and actually see some clear facts.

Many people conveniently forget that Jews were in the land and existed long before the other Abrahamic religions . The fact they became the minority group does not legitimise erasing historical facts.

Before anyone jumps all over me - I don't think this fact justifies treating people unfairly but it is crucial not to rewrite history to suit our own narrative.

Thank you[/quote]
Indeed.

@CounsellorTroi

Other countries are frequently called out on their human rights abuses - the reason Israel is such a major issue is because instead of being condemned, it’s being backed and justified by many. That happened with South Africa too btw, right to the very bitter end - because it was in the best interests of some to do so.

And also because Israel is a democracy and we expect democracies to know better.

Yes, those lovely countries, but hey ho that's alright, carry on and just focus just on Israel

@Menoismymate

Other countries are frequently called out on their human rights abuses - the reason Israel is such a major issue is because instead of being condemned, it’s being backed and justified by many. That happened with South Africa too btw, right to the very bitter end - because it was in the best interests of some to do so.

And also because Israel is a democracy and we expect democracies to know better.'

Yup, it's always harder to swallow when a democracy ( and the US is guikty of this too) try to present themselves as 'moral' or a role model of some sort while committing human rights violations.

Expecting Israel to be 'better' because it is a democracy is racist. Plenty of its neighbours are also democracies.

It is racist towards Jews to expect the world's only Jewish State to be perfect and it is racist to accept corruption and poor human rights as unquestioned in surrounding Arab states.

It betrays a very colonial, Orientalist view of Muslim states, which infantilises them. It also betrays an antisemitism where Jews are always held to higher expectations than everyone else.