Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

Both sides want to claim they’ve ‘won’ apparently but how on earth anyone can think there’s a victor in this is beyond me.

The Tablet is an online magazine for Jewish news, culture and ideas. Always good to know the source.

Careful now @Menoismymate - it's the Israeli government you're against, remember? Pretty sure that's what we're all pretending on this thread right? Of course you're not against all Jews, and certainly not Jewish culture and ideas. So you are refusing to read an article written by someone because they are Jewish... why, exactly?

*Do Hamas and Iran have spotless human rights records then?

Are you not ashamed and embarrassed to be pretending that Israel's opponents are all angels with no human rights concerns??*

FFS stop putting words into my mouth. I'm not pretending any regime is an angel.

I did read it - I was suggesting that it's a question of bias. And it's always important to consider the source of information.
An article written from a Jewish POV will have a bias, an article written in an Arab magazine or on an online source will likely have a muslim/arab bias.

So while it's important to read or listen to different POVs on any issue ( and one of the reasons I reluctantly give the Daily Mail online my ad revenue) and not stay within your own echo chamber I think it's equally important to take into account bias.
It's why I prefer to get news from the BBC or reputable news sources rather than Twitter or Insta etc.

And I am NOT against Jews! One of my oldest friends is Jewish, I can't tell you how many Friday nights I have spent at her family's house over the last 30 odd years. However, we have vastly different views on Palestine, as you might imagine.

@anemona

You’ve said everything I’ve wanted to say only do much better. What is needed is to bring Israelis and Palestinians who are more measured together to discuss a way forward.

@Chanjer

Anyway, I'll leave it to you to decide who you think has more backers, globally - Israel, with its Jewish population of under 7 million and a global Jewish population of 14 million, or the Palestinians, supported by 1.5 billion Muslims, across 49 countries?

Does the world stage power of the relative backers not make a difference?

On the subject of the (antisemitic) assumption that Israel has more 'powerful backers' than its opponents (in line with Jewish conspiracy theories popularised by eg the notorious antisemitic forgery, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion), it's instructive to look at the numbers of UN Resolutions that criticise Israel.

If Israel was as powerful as some seem to think, you would think that Israel would manage to escape censure, wouldn't you?

Let's look at the most recent full year. In 2020, the UN issued 23 resolutions attacking 7 different countries. How many criticised Israel? None? One? Two?

No. You might be astonished to discover that out of the total of 23 UN Resolutions in 2020, 17 - that's over 70% - criticised Israel.

No other country received more than 1. And only 6 countries even got that.

So what do you think? Was Israel's behaviour in 2020 actually 17 X worse than all the worst countries in the world eg China on the Uighars, N Korea, Iran etc?

Or is it actually total BS that Israel is favoured internationally and 'protected by powerful backers'?

You decide.

Hiw indigenous are the Palestinians in the stead being discussed - I’ve seen a Hamas official (and other claims) state many came from other areas in the region such as Egypt and other nearby countries. Not that i think that lowers their tights in their claim to live there at all. I see other people arguing the importance of who was there first etc

@Menoismymate

The Tablet is an online magazine for Jewish news, culture and ideas. Always good to know the source.

Yes. It is.

You're very welcome to read it with that proviso in mind.

But you need to argue with the points made with more than an ad hominem.

'No. You might be astonished to discover that out of the total of 23 UN Resolutions in 2020, 17 - that's over 70% - criticised Israel'

I'm not astonished. I'm just astonished that you don't see the correlation with how the Israeli state treats the people in OPT and the UN criticism of that. You can possibly believe that it's anti semitism and somehow Israel is the victim?
If memory serves me right the Apartheid government in South Africa used to get quite a bit of criticism from the UN as well as everywhere else, and they didn't think that it was fair either.

@CounsellorTroi

*Do Hamas and Iran have spotless human rights records then?

Are you not ashamed and embarrassed to be pretending that Israel's opponents are all angels with no human rights concerns??*

FFS stop putting words into my mouth. I'm not pretending any regime is an angel.

Strange.

Because on this thread all you have done is criticise Israel.

Do tell us your views on Hamas and Iran.

I no longer trust human rights orgs to operate without bias. I’ve had my eyes opened recently to how they think and operate under bias - thinking of Amnesty and ACLU and some others

Anemona, judging people on what they have not said, and on what you believe to be in their minds, is a dangerous game.

I think it deplorable that Hamas wishes to destroy Israel. I find the Iran's human rights record on most if not all things deplorable. I also find the actions of the Israeli government with regard to the Palestinians deplorable. I can deplore all of those things. Doesn't make me anti semitic.

@Menoismymate

'No. You might be astonished to discover that out of the total of 23 UN Resolutions in 2020, 17 - that's over 70% - criticised Israel'

I'm not astonished. I'm just astonished that you don't see the correlation with how the Israeli state treats the people in OPT and the UN criticism of that. You can possibly believe that it's anti semitism and somehow Israel is the victim?
If memory serves me right the Apartheid government in South Africa used to get quite a bit of criticism from the UN as well as everywhere else, and they didn't think that it was fair either.

You want to have your cake and eat it. You want to claim that Israel is protected by powerful backers and no-one ever criticises it.

But you also want to claim that it has been officially labelled as 17 X worse than any other country in the whole world in 2020.

So the fact that millions of Uighars are being tortured, stabilised, imprisoned, and some murdered or organs harvested is apparently way less bad - at least 17 times less bad - than what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

Although I feel sorry for the Palestinians in many ways, one way in which I do not feel sorry for them is that 1 Palestinian life is clearly worth thousands of Uighar lives to Western activists.

@menoismymate ... and delighted as I am to hear that you have a Jewish friend (round of applause), you should also be aware that saying 'some of my best friends are Jews' is one of the oldest prefaces to anti-semitic tropes in the book.

@CounsellorTroi

Anemona, judging people on what they have not said, and on what you believe to be in their minds, is a dangerous game.

I think it deplorable that Hamas wishes to destroy Israel. I find the Iran's human rights record on most if not all things deplorable. I also find the actions of the Israeli government with regard to the Palestinians deplorable. I can deplore all of those things. Doesn't make me anti semitic.

Strange, because that's what I've been saying all along and you've been criticising me for this.

Glad we agree.

iwantedfairies
Wish there was someone who had a big enough standing on the world stage to help broker a way forward.

Provided the actual intention were to broker a way forward.

This is an interesting view on one person who "brought peace to the Middle East" recently.

twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1392143592442023937?s=19

(I am reasonably certain that Seth Abramson is Jewish; he seems to have said several times that he is.)

[quote joanneg36]@menoismymate ... and delighted as I am to hear that you have a Jewish friend (round of applause), you should also be aware that saying 'some of my best friends are Jews' is one of the oldest prefaces to anti-semitic tropes in the book.[/quote]
Agree. It was such a cliche it made me want to snigger. I didn't think anyone would actually say that.

Bet some of her friends are black people too.

She should really get some brownie points for that! I'll give her a

I don't know why that link didn't work; it did in the MumsNet thread where I found it!

It's there if you copy and paste.

Just to clarify, by the way, in 2020, there were an astonishing ZERO UN Resoutions criticising China. Imprisoning 2 million Uighars in concentration camps does not merit a UN Resolution. Russia got none either. Nor did Saudi.

@anemona

Have you verified my figures yet, sourced from a Jewish website?

That’s quite a reduction in the number of non-Jews in Palestine/Israel in 1948. A catastrophe even.

As referenced before, data cut and paste from Jewish Virtual Library
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

'@menoismymate ... and delighted as I am to hear that you have a Jewish friend (round of applause), you should also be aware that saying 'some of my best friends are Jews' is one of the oldest prefaces to anti-semitic tropes in the book.

I'm not anti-semitic because My BFF is Jewish, I'm not anti-semitic because I just not. Just like I'm not a racist, or anti-muslim, or homophobic not because of my black, muslim friends or gay friends but because I'm just not.

And as many, many people have said on here over and over again, it is NOT anti-Jewish to criticise the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza.

Accusations of anti-semitism are often dragged out to shut down debate about Israel and OPT. I'm glad that it's not worked so far on these threads.

Death toll now at least 58 children in Gaza.

CNN 'Two Israeli airstrikes in Gaza killed at least 43 Palestinians including eight children and injured 50 others, most of whom were women and children early Sunday, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health. With the latest casualties, the death toll in Gaza has climbed to a total of 197, including at least 58 children and 34 women, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health. Since the beginning of the Israeli airstrikes on Gaza this week, at least 1,235 Palestinians have been injured, with the number expected to rise, the health ministry said, as paramedics continue to carry out search operations. Ten Israelis have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza, according to the IDF.'