You just cannot talk about Palestine on this forum

[Faffandahalf]

Why has the last thread been taken down with a ‘goady op’ message?
What’s so goady about asking why we can’t criticise the actions of Israel?
Don’t even give a shit this is a TAAT and will get zapped.

Palestine exists. Ethnic cleansing is happening. And every single thread gets taken down.

Only one person on that thread shouted anti semitism. Every one else was mostly in agreement about what is happening and it still gets zapped.

I’ll once again direct people to friends of al Aqsa on Instagram and Twitter in the hopes people see this and would like some real information.

Israel is an occupying oppressor committing genocide and the Palestinians are an oppressed people. There is no comparison in the force power and might of these two groups esp when one has the backing and funding of the US.

Seriously pissed at MN for refusing to allow truths to be told about the situation

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-54237970

I beg the humanist on this thread,

Is it not fair to say, to those that claim like this conflict is too complicated for a solution,

That it’s international. It’s religiously complicated. It’s historically puzzling..

Well ok, I agree to disagree.

But let’s focus on the non disputable argument.

Supporting, excusing, funding any action that breaks international law and human rights is directly involving yourself in feuling this conflict.

Supporting occupation is fueling the conflict.

We don’t just need to boycott Israel. Because that isn’t working when they have people replacing their lost funds.

We need to criminalise funding of any organisation that is breaking human rights and international law.

And that’s a very national problem. It’s not foreign

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

AnnieLofriar I really do worry about where you are getting your misinformation from.

My family. Who were not living in Canaan during the nineteenth century and after it, but being the victims of attempted (in their case, or I wouldn't be here) genocide in Europe, and knew what was done to them.

Well, with all due respect, your family is wrong about historical facts or you have misunderstood. And I'm not sure I understand what attempted genocide in Europe you are referring to here. Or, indeed, why you are referring to an ancient civilisation as having existed in the 19th century which is really bizarre.

@AnnieLofriar

My information comes numerous referenced sources, amongst which is the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine (ie a primary source) where the Mandate agrees to

“the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non­Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country”

ARTICLE 4. An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co­operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co­operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home

In plain black and white. The British government, with the help of the Zionists, sought to create a Jewish state. Further, the introductory wording states “recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country”

The key words being “Historical” I.e. not current and “reconstitution” I.e to return something to a state that existed before but does not exist now.

That is primary source documentation - you can find it in many places but I got it from here www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/text-of-the-british-mandate-for-palestine (I am assuming this is a source which is neutral, or at least not prejudiced against Jewish people, apologies if not)

So please feel free to continue to tell. Me I’m wrong, but the mandate for Palestine had the clear and unequivocal ambition to establish a Jewish homeland that had a “Zionist Agency”.

As I’ve said before, I’m absolutely ashamed of what the British did. Arrogant, racist colonisers who have sown the seeds of destruction in so many parts of the world. But the Zionists are equally as complicit when it comes to Palestine.

@DeepThinkingGirl

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-54237970

I beg the humanist on this thread,

Is it not fair to say, to those that claim like this conflict is too complicated for a solution,

That it’s international. It’s religiously complicated. It’s historically puzzling..

Well ok, I agree to disagree.

But let’s focus on the non disputable argument.

Supporting, excusing, funding any action that breaks international law and human rights is directly involving yourself in feuling this conflict.

Supporting occupation is fueling the conflict.

We don’t just need to boycott Israel. Because that isn’t working when they have people replacing their lost funds.

We need to criminalise funding of any organisation that is breaking human rights and international law.

And that’s a very national problem. It’s not foreign

If you're an objective humanist, then I would assume that the far more egregious violation of international law and human rights abuses would motivate you far more than the Israel/Palestine conflict.

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@AnnieLofriar

My information comes numerous referenced sources, amongst which is the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine (ie a primary source) where the Mandate agrees to

“the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non­Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country”

ARTICLE 4. An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co­operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co­operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home

In plain black and white. The British government, with the help of the Zionists, sought to create a Jewish state. Further, the introductory wording states “recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country”

The key words being “Historical” I.e. not current and “reconstitution” I.e to return something to a state that existed before but does not exist now.

That is primary source documentation - you can find it in many places but I got it from here www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/text-of-the-british-mandate-for-palestine (I am assuming this is a source which is neutral, or at least not prejudiced against Jewish people, apologies if not)

So please feel free to continue to tell. Me I’m wrong, but the mandate for Palestine had the clear and unequivocal ambition to establish a Jewish homeland that had a “Zionist Agency”.

As I’ve said before, I’m absolutely ashamed of what the British did. Arrogant, racist colonisers who have sown the seeds of destruction in so many parts of the world. But the Zionists are equally as complicit when it comes to Palestine.[/quote]
you're jumping between claims. This doesn't back up anything you've said previously but anyway....

The British promised Palestine to the Arabs too. They didn't support a Jewish state, they supported a Jewish homeland and then reneged on their promise later when it proved inconvenient.

I'm ashamed of what the British did by condemning hundreds of thousands of desperate Jewish refugees from Europe to be murdered by the Nazis by denying them refuge in Palestine and slamming the door shut in their hour of need. You should be too.

@Ikeasucks

Everything is the fault of Israel

That is wrong. It is the fault of many. Simplifying, it is the fault of the British and the Zionists, the French, the Americans and then Israel. As well as Arab leaders (landowners) in the who valued personal wealth over security of their kin.

It is absolutely essential to understand that the damage started way before the creation of Israel. And the longer that is ignored, the more this problem will become intractable.

And I’m not virtue signalling, I’m fact-signalling and bullshit-calling.

And it's rather bizarre to say that the Zionists were complicit in establishing a Jewish State. What an odd way of thinking. It's their whole raison d'etre!

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@Ikeasucks

Everything is the fault of Israel

That is wrong. It is the fault of many. Simplifying, it is the fault of the British and the Zionists, the French, the Americans and then Israel. As well as Arab leaders (landowners) in the who valued personal wealth over security of their kin.

It is absolutely essential to understand that the damage started way before the creation of Israel. And the longer that is ignored, the more this problem will become intractable.

And I’m not virtue signalling, I’m fact-signalling and bullshit-calling.[/quote]
Hmm, an interesting perspective which absolves the Palestinians (or in fact any Arabs other than landowners!) of any responsibility at all for the situation, historically and currently. Makes them innocent and blameless victims without any kind of agency. And not correct in the slightest,

If you're an objective humanist, then I would assume that the far more egregious violation of international law and human rights abuses would motivate you far more than the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Seriously, that’s your answer to me Annie?

A granddaughter of a Palestinian man, who lost his home and stability and a father who suffered with trauma after experiences in Sabra, and watching fellow humans going through similar ordeals still in my generation...

Your answer is to TELL me to not focus on the fact someone is funding these violations because there are other more important humanitarian issues.

You are trivialising the humanity of the Palestinians yet again, with your whataboutery.

That’s not ok.

AnnieLofria
And I'm not sure I understand what attempted genocide in Europe you are referring to here. Or, indeed, why you are referring to an ancient civilisation as having existed in the 19th century which is really bizarre.

Oh dear. No knowledge of pogroms is a sorry gap. Possibly mentioning the shoah might have been within your consciousness; but that was really quite late on.

I referred to it as Canaan because both Palestine and Israel are open to dispute. And after all, the Jewish claim to ownership of that land does go back to Canaan, doesn't it.

@AnnieLofriar

Even when fact with primary source facts you are in denial. A Jewish State has been created on land which was, 100 years ago, predominantly Arab.

The British promised the Arabs autonomy and then went back on that, crossing to support the Zionist cause instead.

The Zionists had no right to that land, they colonised it and displaced the indigenous population.

It is a real shame you are unable to accept or understand this.

Fact = faced ^

AnnieLofriar

Don’t you think your narrative of history about this conflict has been narrated to you by the very same narrators that have taught you to trivialise my grandads humans rights in the same way you carry on to do that today?

Because the uniformity of such apathy and indifference towards me and my people is really the biggest evidence I have against you right now which calls me to question your narrative.

@DeepThinkingGirl

If you're an objective humanist, then I would assume that the far more egregious violation of international law and human rights abuses would motivate you far more than the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Seriously, that’s your answer to me Annie?

A granddaughter of a Palestinian man, who lost his home and stability and a father who suffered with trauma after experiences in Sabra, and watching fellow humans going through similar ordeals still in my generation...

Your answer is to TELL me to not focus on the fact someone is funding these violations because there are other more important humanitarian issues.

You are trivialising the humanity of the Palestinians yet again, with your whataboutery.

That’s not ok.

You claimed to be an objective humanist. You're not. That's fine. I'm not an objective observer either, I have a stake in this too.

Just an aside, you've mentioned Sabra a few times. The Sabra massacre was horrific, of course. Israel had a responsibility to protect the Palestinians as they had control of that part of Lebanon at the time and they did not fulfil that responsibility. But let's also remember who actually carried out the massacre in Sabra and Shatila. And it wasn't the Israelis - it was the Christian phalangists. I'm sure your father suffered terribly if he was in Sabra at the time of the massacre and I am sorry for and ashamed of Israel's role in not preventing it but it was fellow Arabs who carried out the massacre, not Israelis.

it was fellow Arabs who carried out the massacre, not Israelis

FFS this is an outrageous lie. It was carried out by Christians against Palestinians and Lebanese Shia and The IDF facilitated it by lighting up the sky with flares as the Christians shot and stabbed there way trough the camps.

Your inhumanity, particularly to someone whose relatives lived through this, is beyond comprehension.

I’m amazed you are Bringing up Lebanon given what Israel did. But this not the thread for that.

(For those that want to start to understand what Israeli did to Lebanon in the 1980s, “from Beirut to Jerusalem” by Thomas Friedman - who is Jewish - is a good start)

@DeepThinkingGirl

AnnieLofriar

Don’t you think your narrative of history about this conflict has been narrated to you by the very same narrators that have taught you to trivialise my grandads humans rights in the same way you carry on to do that today?

Because the uniformity of such apathy and indifference towards me and my people is really the biggest evidence I have against you right now which calls me to question your narrative.

I heard a certain narrative in my childhood which I later questioned and researched independently. You can fact check each and every statement I have made and you will see it is true. Please do point out anything where you have verifiable evidence to the contrary.

In terms of opinion and narrative, I'm pretty left wing in my views. I don't support the occupation, I think it's completely immoral and this is despite my own grandparents having been expelled from Hebron. I believe that Israel should withdraw completely and allow a Palestinian state to be established (or at the very least to work towards that goal which it is currently undermining). But I also believe that what happened prior to the occupation is very different. What happened in 1947/8 - which had reached an "us or them" situation - is very different to what is happening now in so many ways.

I have shown no apathy or indifference towards Palestinians, quite the opposite and I would challenge you to show me anything that I have written that demonstrates apathy or indifference. You won't find anything.

AnnieLofriar

You make very good points and it really would be nice to have a discussion with you further on some specifics of history at some point.

But you must be aware that this thread is within a context of trying to focus on how to support the human rights of palestinians that have no protection right now..

I will not allow for the topic to be distracted in this way.

I think I’m using objective morality to advocate for human rights.

When you’re using biblical and historic and anecdotal arguments then you are distracting the objective moral code that unites us as humans at a time when it’s needed.

Right now, objective morality is human rights and international law.. and these are what I’m arguing for.

What are you arguing for ? That is so objective ?

You are welcome to use the same objective moral codes to advocate for the rights of Israelis. I would support you.

So far you’re imposing your religious beleifs, your narrative of history, and claiming that’s your rights.

Let’s talk about the now, what objective morality do you want to advocate for the Israelis, and I’m here to support a discussion about that.

But don’t you go trivialise a discussion about the human rights of Palestinians. Because that would say so much about you and what you stand for.

@JustFedUpOfThis

it was fellow Arabs who carried out the massacre, not Israelis

FFS this is an outrageous lie. It was carried out by Christians against Palestinians and Lebanese Shia and The IDF facilitated it by lighting up the sky with flares as the Christians shot and stabbed there way trough the camps.

Your inhumanity, particularly to someone whose relatives lived through this, is beyond comprehension.

I’m amazed you are Bringing up Lebanon given what Israel did. But this not the thread for that.

(For those that want to start to understand what Israeli did to Lebanon in the 1980s, “from Beirut to Jerusalem” by Thomas Friedman - who is Jewish - is a good start)

I don't understand. You brought up Lebanon, not me. What is the lie that it was the Arabs that carried out the massacre? That's just the truth. The Israelis should have prevented it, no doubt, they did have that responsibility and they failed in that regard. But they didn't carry out the massacre. You just said it yourself, it was the Christian Phalangist Arabs who did it.

AnnieLofriar

Annie, discussing history narratives, and dwelling on those emotive traumatic issues and trying to dissect where we agree to disagree and where we need to build factual understanding... is a discussion that would be nice to have to builds understanding..

But it is impossible to have those discussions when it is obvious when any discussions about the present is with you trivialising any present advocation of objective morality for both sides of this history.

Why would I, on the other side of history, want to reason with you if you believe me to be beneath the moral code that you hold on to so dearly?

Why would I want to entertain any discussion about your recollection of history if it seems that we have no agreement on anything humanist and therefore your recollection is biased against my humanity?! Because my plights back then are as trivial to you as they are right now it seems?

It was not Arabs who carried out the sabra and shatila it was Christian Lebanese - the Phalange - who were Israel’s allies in the invasion of Lebanon. Israel wanted a Christian country on one of its borders. Your history is really very poor, isn’t it?

It is islamophobic in the extreme to try to put that slur or the Arabs (as you well know Arab = Muslim as far as west is concerned).

@DeepThinkingGirl

AnnieLofriar

You make very good points and it really would be nice to have a discussion with you further on some specifics of history at some point.

But you must be aware that this thread is within a context of trying to focus on how to support the human rights of palestinians that have no protection right now..

I will not allow for the topic to be distracted in this way.

I think I’m using objective morality to advocate for human rights.

When you’re using biblical and historic and anecdotal arguments then you are distracting the objective moral code that unites us as humans at a time when it’s needed.

Right now, objective morality is human rights and international law.. and these are what I’m arguing for.

What are you arguing for ? That is so objective ?

You are welcome to use the same objective moral codes to advocate for the rights of Israelis. I would support you.

So far you’re imposing your religious beleifs, your narrative of history, and claiming that’s your rights.

Let’s talk about the now, what objective morality do you want to advocate for the Israelis, and I’m here to support a discussion about that.

But don’t you go trivialise a discussion about the human rights of Palestinians. Because that would say so much about you and what you stand for.

I don't trivialise anything, I'm simply correcting other posters' lies and misinformation with verifiable facts. I have my own opinions about what is happening which I would be happy to share and, to be honest, they are quite ambivalent (which is very different to apathetic of course, my heart bleeds for the suffering on both sides) because I see the damage being done on both sides and I do not know the way out. I do think both sides have culpability and there is not one side which is a blameless victim, even with the power differential.

However, on these threads, they inevitably start demonising Israel (and then usually crying about how they are not allowed to do that and how terrible it is that they can't call Israelis Nazis or something similar). The very fact that OP referred to a genocide is evidence on this. It is not genocide that is happening and this kind of hyperbole does not help.

There also needs to be recognition that Hamas is a terrorist organization. Not jsut against Israel but also against its own people: opponents, gays, women. The firing of rockets into a civilian population with the intent of killing as many as possible is a war crime.

I'm also used to these threads, where I express an opinion against the "Palestinians are blameless victims and Israel is the source of all evil" that I will be accused at the personal levels of not caring, dehumanizing, blah blah. Twas always thus.

@DeepThinkingGirl

By the way, what religious beliefs have I expressed?

I'd be very interested to know since I do not think I have expressed any. (I'm agnostic by the way, don't think there's a god but always good to leave a little room for doubt)

Oh, sorry, you siad I'd IMPOSED my religious beliefs @DeepThinkingGirl . Interesting. Please do point out to me where this is hte case.

At least 10 people have been killed, including eight children, in an Israeli air strike on a refugee camp in Gaza, officials say
A five-month-old baby found trapped in the rubble is said to be the only survivor from a family

The Israeli Government has clearly lost its moral compass totally