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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

You just cannot talk about Palestine on this forum

999 replies

Faffandahalf · 11/05/2021 14:03

Why has the last thread been taken down with a ‘goady op’ message?
What’s so goady about asking why we can’t criticise the actions of Israel?
Don’t even give a shit this is a TAAT and will get zapped.

Palestine exists. Ethnic cleansing is happening. And every single thread gets taken down.

Only one person on that thread shouted anti semitism. Every one else was mostly in agreement about what is happening and it still gets zapped.

I’ll once again direct people to friends of al Aqsa on Instagram and Twitter in the hopes people see this and would like some real information.

Israel is an occupying oppressor committing genocide and the Palestinians are an oppressed people. There is no comparison in the force power and might of these two groups esp when one has the backing and funding of the US.

Seriously pissed at MN for refusing to allow truths to be told about the situation

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Ikeasucks · 15/05/2021 01:54

States can be terrorists too. And they will always have people who support them.

Syria, Gaza, Iran? All with the best of intentions towards Israelis of course

Jente · 15/05/2021 02:12

Feel free to start a thread about those countries. It will not negate the cheerleading for ethnic cleansing I am seeing on here.

Abi86 · 15/05/2021 02:18

Who owns the holy land? The Jewish claim:

www.westarinstitute.org/resources/the-fourth-r/who-owns-the-holy-land-part-1/

The Palestinian claim:

www.westarinstitute.org/resources/the-fourth-r/who-owns-the-holy-land-part-2/

So, what I gather, from a historical perspective is that the Jews are the oldest living inhabitants of the holy land given the canaanites don’t exist (it appears the Jews and canaanites integrated).

The Palestinian claim is historically much more recent and it looks like the Palestinians aren’t a homogenous race. (“The Palestinians do not have a common ethnic origin or a common religion. What joins them together is simply the fact that they and their ancestors have lived in the land of Palestine from as far back as any of them can record. In their veins run the blood of the ancient Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Crusaders and Turks.”)

I’m not sure if the articles above help or hinder the discussion.

Ikeasucks · 15/05/2021 02:20

The stated desire to ethnically cleanse jews from “Palestine” if they could - do you acknowledge that?

“From the river to the sea - Palestine will be free” twitter.com/hananyanaftali/status/1285227970097971201?s=21 is a popular saying

AnnieLofriar · 15/05/2021 03:59

@Abi86

Who owns the holy land? The Jewish claim:

www.westarinstitute.org/resources/the-fourth-r/who-owns-the-holy-land-part-1/

The Palestinian claim:

www.westarinstitute.org/resources/the-fourth-r/who-owns-the-holy-land-part-2/

So, what I gather, from a historical perspective is that the Jews are the oldest living inhabitants of the holy land given the canaanites don’t exist (it appears the Jews and canaanites integrated).

The Palestinian claim is historically much more recent and it looks like the Palestinians aren’t a homogenous race. (“The Palestinians do not have a common ethnic origin or a common religion. What joins them together is simply the fact that they and their ancestors have lived in the land of Palestine from as far back as any of them can record. In their veins run the blood of the ancient Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Crusaders and Turks.”)

I’m not sure if the articles above help or hinder the discussion.

I think it helps show that it's complicated! Jews and Palestinians both have legitimate claims. There is no solution while either claim is denied or delegitimized. And both need to compromise.
AnnieLofriar · 15/05/2021 04:01

@TrishM80

The Gaza Strip is an area smaller than the Isle of Wight with over 2 million people crammed into it and nowhere to escape. The world's largest open air prison, and they don't have a multi billion dollar state of the art missile defence system to protect them either. Like shooting fish in a barrel for the Israelis.
Except Israel is using its high tech to try to minimize civilian casualties. Hamas didn't spend its time and money building bomb shelters. Given how good they are at building tunnels for themselves from Egypt and to enter Israel and how much time and money they have spent building or importing long range rockets, you'd think they could spare some time and materials to build bomb shelters. But, no, not a priority for them.
AnnieLofriar · 15/05/2021 04:11

[quote AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]AnnieLofriar
Recognizing the suffering of the Palestinians due to the creation of Israel is an important first step in my opinion. I grew up with a narrative that the Palestinians had all just voluntarily left. It didn't quite make sense to me at the time (all sounded way too convenient) and, of course, the truth is far more complex - some fled in fear, some were forced out.

This originated in the "A land without people for people without a land" myth promulgated after WW2. A lot of people arriving from Europe after considerable suffering were very shocked when they discovered what a lie that was, and that if they were to have that land, the people who had been there for generations were going to have to be removed from it and forced to suffer as they had themselves.

(My father knew some of them who managed to come here instead in the end. But it wasn't easy for them to do so, because dumping them in Palestine was an easier option for the Powers.)

Jente has linked to something rather better than many sites, but I'll do it again because I was going to anyway: www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20200818_gaza_water_scarce_polluted_mostly_unfit_for_use

WaterAid are doing good stuff for Gaza as well.

Anyone in Israel who cares about the suffering of children in Gaza might consider donating to either of those charities to do a little bit to help make those children's lives a little less horrendous.

I don't know how much actual good these people do, but
news.antiwar.com/2020/08/23/israel-bans-imports-into-gaza-except-food-and-medicine/[/quote]
No it didn't. There was never any suggestion that the land wasn't inhabited apart from a few statemetns in the early days of Zionism (when the idea was that there was plenty of room for all given how much WAS uninhabited). You're talking rubbish. It certainly wasn't "promulgated" after WW2. www.jstor.org/stable/4283461?seq=1

And my family have been in Israel since the middle of the 19th century, pre-Zionism. They moved for religious reasons because Eretz Yisrael is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

No, most people arriving in Palestine after WW2 (which is NOT the majority, there was already substantial and thriving Jewish population by that point) were not shocked that there was an Arab population. Where on earth do you hear this rubbish? I personally know people who escaped Europe before, during or directly after the war and many things shocked them about Palestine but not that there were Arabs Hmm

And no one "dumped" them in Palestine. Certainly no powers. Indeed, the British refused to let Jewish refugees into Palestine after the war and interned them in Cyprus. www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/microsoft%20word%20-%20727.pdf

I really do worry about where you are getting your misinformation from.

AnnieLofriar · 15/05/2021 04:13

@StoneofDestiny

*A point I would like to also point out is that does anyone not think it strange that Benjamin Netanyahu was on his way out by the sounds of it and suddenly he started showing his hand of attacking Palestine and now it seems he will be staying in power much longer. Seems to be this "war" was very political on his part. A means for him to gain support from his national parties to stay in power*

Exactly - though I didn't find it strange, just highly predictable. A well used tactic.
This was all started by the Israeli Government - and now they are bleating 'their security'. Heard this so many times.

You don't also think it strange that this has coincided with the first Palestinian elections in 15 years (now postponed)? I don't deny that Netanyahu may win politically from this situation but Hamas has an agenda too.
Greenmarmalade · 15/05/2021 07:06

@Ikeasucks

^ my beef with the hypocrisy on this thread isn’t with them (though I don’t infantilise them and refuse to acknowledge that they played a part in making unwise choice after unwise choice in this conflict) - it’s with people in the UK lacking imagination and sitting safe (with their children) who bolster up the Palestinians unwise choice after unwise choice and encourage them to keep
makings unwise choices by telling them they are nothing but innocent victims (who in hindsight could have made better choices) with the moral high ground - whilst sitting safe (with their children) in the UK^

Please tell me the range of choices you think Palestinians have? Because other than sitting tight and allowing Israel to take more land and more homes, build more walls, lock up more of their outspoken teenagers, I can’t see that they have any choices.

Israel has the power, money, resources. They have choice.

Adventureswith · 15/05/2021 08:26

Lod is in absolute turmoil, both sides roaming the streets looking for people to fight with. Calls by far right Jews to come to the town to ‘help’ fight the Arab Israelis and the police filmed standing by watching as the Jewish members of the population attack and riot and only arresting the Arabs.
The US have finally sent an envoy to try to broker de-escalation talks.

MissAmandaLa1kes · 15/05/2021 08:35

How do the palestinian territories exist economically? If the are unable to export anything, or even if they have factories or businesses to create something to sell how do they get any income?

Also when situations like soviets in afghanistan, chechnya, allies in afghanistan, allies in iraq and the balkan conflicts get jihadis ten a penny, why does the palestinian situation not do the same?

Also, israel was created as the Jewish state. That will get regular jews keen to settle happily, but does garner very radical jews.

Israel has a lot if support from jews in the US. I wonder if support for palestinians is gained at the "nasty US" ideology of the left? Ironically it is always the US who is expected to lead peace talks. I dont see any other nation taking it on themselves. China, now it has been covid free for a year could step up (aye right).

JustFedUpOfThis · 15/05/2021 08:59

@AnnieLofriar

I really do worry about where you are getting your misinformation from

Yet you have deliberately mislead with your comments.

And my family have been in Israel since the middle of the 19th century, pre-Zionism

No-one is denying that Jews did not live in Israel in the 19th century. But they were vastly outnumbered by Arabs - as shown in graph I have shared twice.

No, most people arriving in Palestine after WW2 (which is NOT the majority, there was already substantial and thriving Jewish population by that point) were not shocked that there was an Arab population. Where on earth do you hear this rubbish?

Yes - there was a substantial Jewish population post WW1 as - thanks to the Rule of the British Mandate which was designed to heavily favour the Jews, the Jewish population had grown massively from post WW1 - particularly in the 1930’s due to rise of Nazism. So of course the Jews arriving in 1945 were not surprised to see a thriving population. The British had encouraged this. And one of the reasons they were thriving, aside from Favourable rules designed by the British, was that many of the incoming Jews were wealthy - they had the resources to start businesses. They were not typical refugees who flee with nothing other than the clothes on their back. (Note that I know that for those poor souls escaping the Holocaust this was not the case)

And no one "dumped" them in Palestine. Certainly no powers. Indeed, the British refused to let Jewish refugees into Palestine after the war and interned them in Cyprus.

That is a very misleading statement. The huge and unfettered influx of Jews into Palestine in the 1930’s resulted in the Arab Revolt of 1936 - 1939. At this point the British did begin to realise that an extremely dangerous situation was arising in Palestine. So they produced a white paper which restricted the number of Jews arriving per year 75,000

zionist terrorism

As a result of these restrictions, several
Zionist terror groups started attacking the British. This included bomb attacks in London and Jerusalem where the bomb attack on the King David Hotel resulted in 91 deaths.

In another desperately unfortunate incident, the Haganah deliberately bombed the ship “Patria” which contained Jewish refugees who had been refused entry to Palestine as they didn’t have permits. The Haganah wanted to alert the world to their plight but ultimately sank the ship, killing nearly 300 refugees. The survivors were allowed entry to Palestine by the British.

You have made selective statements which are true but only if the full
Context is given. Written the way you have, they disguise the truth.

What is true is that the in the aftermath of WW1, the Arabs formed the vast majority of the Palestinian population. Indeed it was the Arabs, and not the Jews, who fought alongside the British in WW1 to help defeat Germany’s ally - the Ottoman Empire. The Jewish population only started to grow significantly after WW1 where there was a huge influx of Jews (and it’s really important to note that many of these Jews were wealthy so had the means to establish themselves).

The British went back on their promise of autonomy (McMahon Letters) to the Arabs who had helped them and instead chose to honour the Balfour Agreement, promising a Jewish Homeland. The British treatment of the Arabs was truly despicable but sadly only the start of a whole series of persecutions.

BlackForestCake · 15/05/2021 09:43

There are protests in solidarity with Palestine this weekend, in London it's 12pm today at Marble Arch

Dunno if I'm allowed to link but there's a list of protests elsewhere on the Stop the War Coalition site

ConfusedAdultFemale · 15/05/2021 09:51

@MissAmandaLa1kes the same way any other terrorist organisation exists I expect. They don’t find funding in the traditional way.

JustFedUpOfThis · 15/05/2021 09:58

[quote ConfusedAdultFemale]@MissAmandaLa1kes the same way any other terrorist organisation exists I expect. They don’t find funding in the traditional way.[/quote]
@ConfusedAdultFemale

Really? That is your answer to original question:

How do the palestinian territories exist economically?

Are you really implying all Palestinians in the occupied territories are terrorists? Just slightly islamophobic, no?

Acidburn · 15/05/2021 10:15

@JustFedUpOfThis you are literally taking things out of context and attack everyone who dares to say anything apart your favorite narrative of "poor palestinians, horrible israelies". You are not interested in an objective analysis of the situation, your pure goal is to raise hatred towards Israelies (Government, civilians, you don't care). But guess what - no one cares. You know why Israel resuses ceasefire now? Because it hasn't finished it's job of removing terrorists. And it will not stop until it does. Deal with it.

MissyB1 · 15/05/2021 10:17

Because it hasn’t finished it’s job of removing terrorists

Oh I think you mean because it hasn’t finished ethnic cleansing?

ConfusedAdultFemale · 15/05/2021 10:29

@JustFedUpOfThis I’m pretty sure I was talking about Palestinian terrorists, not Palestinians as a whole (especially considering the person I was replying to was talking specifically about terrorists) Hmm think you’re just looking for a reason to be offended and virtue signal now love, pop off and have a cuppa eh?

Lonelycrab · 15/05/2021 11:01

especially considering the person I was replying to was talking specifically about terrorists

No, they weren’t. The post at 835 this morning asks how those living in the Palestinian Territories can survive economically.

You answered by saying that they’re funded like any other terrorist organisation. It’s quite clear the jump you’ve made.

AnnieLofriar · 15/05/2021 11:39

@JustFedUpOfThis

Absolutely nothing misleading in the slightest about what I wrote. All verifiable facts. But you, again, are a source of misinformation. Honestly, where are you getting this from? I can’t believe you are serious.

Yes - there was a substantial Jewish population post WW1 as - thanks to the Rule of the British Mandate which was designed to heavily favour the Jews, the Jewish population had grown massively from post WW1 - particularly in the 1930’s due to rise of Nazism. So of course the Jews arriving in 1945 were not surprised to see a thriving population. The British had encouraged this. And one of the reasons they were thriving, aside from Favourable rules designed by the British, was that many of the incoming Jews were wealthy - they had the resources to start businesses. They were not typical refugees who flee with nothing other than the clothes on their back. (Note that I know that for those poor souls escaping the Holocaust this was not the case)

Wrong on so many counts.
a) Many of the incoming Jews were wealthy? WTF? Evidence please? Most of the Jews had NOTHING. Yes, they had human capital - most were well-educated. But they were absolutely not wealthy. Kind of stinks a bit of the usual slur of the wealthy Jew but let's let that one slide. So, no, they were not wealthy.

b)The British had not encouraged or done anything to support the Jewish population. What they had allowed them was a high degree of self rule. But, of course, that was in their self interest. They had to supply schools and hospitals and other services to the Arab population. But the Jewish community took care of all that themselves and did not bother the British which pleased them as it saved them money and resources. True, the Arab revolt did change that somewhat as the British then allowed the Jews to arm and defend themselves which strengthened the "Haganah" and which later helped them win the 1947/8 war but, again, that was self-interest because they were being attacked by the Arabs.

And no one "dumped" them in Palestine. Certainly no powers. Indeed, the British refused to let Jewish refugees into Palestine after the war and interned them in Cyprus.

That is a very misleading statement. The huge and unfettered influx of Jews into Palestine in the 1930’s resulted in the Arab Revolt of 1936 - 1939. At this point the British did begin to realise that an extremely dangerous situation was arising in Palestine. So they produced a white paper which restricted the number of Jews arriving per year 75,000

Wrong, nothing misleading about the statement. After WW2, many desperate “illegal” immigrants (refugees) were interned on Cyprus by the British to stop them entering.

Further, a little history lesson for you as you seem a bit confused. There were a number of waves of immigration of Jews to Palestine. The first and second "aliyot" as the waves are called were during the Ottoman rule (pre WW1) and they were hugely influential in establishing Jewish modern society. The third aliya was 1919-1923, really a continuation of the second. These aliyot were mainly from Poland/Russia and mostly ideological although also affected by the Russian revolution and various pogroms The fourth aliya was during the 1920s. And then, the one you are clearly referring to, was the fifth aliya. which was large and included many German and Austrian Jews (not wealthy - the Nazis didn't allow them to keep their wealth - but often very educated).

Indeed, the growing economic strength of the Jewish community and immigration, as well as urbanization and lack of opportunities in the cities for Arabs, drove the Arab revolt. And the British did severely curtail Jewish immigration as a result.

But think about this. No one was grabbing or stealing land since the British were in charge. Land had to be bought from owners. The Arabs were revolting and murdering because desperate and persecuted Jews were seeking refuge in their ancestral homeland. What do you think happened to the Jews who were turned away from Palestine by the quotas imposed by the British? You do know that these people were most likely murdered by the Nazis? In their deseprate hour of need, the British shut the doors to what should have been their refuge.

zionist terrorism

As a result of these restrictions, several Zionist terror groups started attacking the British. This included bomb attacks in London and Jerusalem where the bomb attack on the King David Hotel resulted in 91 deaths.

In another desperately unfortunate incident, the Haganah deliberately bombed the ship “Patria” which contained Jewish refugees who had been refused entry to Palestine as they didn’t have permits. The Haganah wanted to alert the world to their plight but ultimately sank the ship, killing nearly 300 refugees. The survivors were allowed entry to Palestine by the British.
This is rather bizarrely thrown into the mix. The King David Hotel bombing was condemned by the Jewish mainstream. Of course it was terrorism, people were furious with the British for having prevented desperate Jews refuge and left them to their terrible fate and some decided to take extreme acts of terrorism which were nonetheless condemned by the vast majority of Jews.
And the Patria? WTF? Do you even understand what happened there? The Hagana wanted to disable the boat to prevent the British deporting Jewish refugees from Europe. They miscalculated and sank the boat with awful loss of life. What are you trying to prove with this? Suddenly you care about Jewish refugees? Really odd.

What is true is that the in the aftermath of WW1, the Arabs formed the vast majority of the Palestinian population. Indeed it was the Arabs, and not the Jews, who fought alongside the British in WW1 to help defeat Germany’s ally - the Ottoman Empire. The Jewish population only started to grow significantly after WW1 where there was a huge influx of Jews (and it’s really important to note that many of these Jews were wealthy so had the means to establish themselves).
a) Again, here we go with the wealthy Jews. Because of course Jews must be wealthy. This is patently not true and you have no evidence to back up this statement.
b) If you think the Jews didn’t fight with the British against the Ottomans in Palestine then you really need a history lesson (I mean seriously, WTF, how can you be so wrong?!). The Arabs didn’t like the Ottomans but neither did the Jews. In fact, the Jews were SO supportive of the British (look up the Nili spy network, what happened to Sarah Aharonson) that they were scared that they might suffer the same fate as the Armenians (luckily the British won before that could happen). In fact, ALL the Jews in Tel Aviv were deported by the Ottomans in 1917 with terrible suffering. My grandparents lived through these events. These are verifiable facts, not your fantasy.

Faffandahalf · 15/05/2021 11:40

Thanks for keeping up with all this @JustFedUpOfThis Flowers

You’re doing an amazing job combatting apathy and indifference towards and dehumanising of the Palestinian people and clearly have a wealth of knowledge on the subject.

@Acidburn’s ugly talk of no one caring about Israeli bombing of Palestinian civilians and to ‘deal with it’ sums up the attitude towards Palestinians by Israeli supporters. True colours showing.

Mohammed El Kurd from Sheikh Jarrah has a Twitter and Instagram and posts footage from the ground of ethnic cleansing and brutality.
He also has done brilliant interviews with news outlets like CNN. He was arrested briefly a few days ago but released.
Please follow him for information.

OP posts:
DeepThinkingGirl · 15/05/2021 12:03

Is it true that the Chelsea manager is funding settlers of East Jerusalem?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/21/leaks-show-chelsea-owner-abramovich-funded-israeli-settler-group

Isn’t funding that supports breaking of international law should be put to trial?

Can people in England do something about it? It might send a message across worldwide.

I do think we can start by stopping anyone that contributes to the problem from the British side.

If we can’t offer solutions at least don’t contribute to the problem.

DeepThinkingGirl · 15/05/2021 12:04

Sorry correction, it’s the Chelsea owner:

Roman Abramovich

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 15/05/2021 12:05

AnnieLofriar
I really do worry about where you are getting your misinformation from.

My family. Who were not living in Canaan during the nineteenth century and after it, but being the victims of attempted (in their case, or I wouldn't be here) genocide in Europe, and knew what was done to them.

Ikeasucks · 15/05/2021 12:17

@Greenmarmalade

“1948 May 14th - David Ben-Gurion declares the establishment of the State of Israel. Israel is immediately recognized by the US and the USSR , followed by other countries. On May
15, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon and a contingent from Iraq invade the new state; Israel defends its borders for the next 15 months”.

With hindsight they could have possibly have accepted the deal in 1947 instead of trying defeat the jews and stop the birth of an Israeli State

Then Israel’s neighbours came together to try again in 1967 - another bad choice

Then again in 1973

*Syrian atrocities
Syria ignored the Geneva Conventions and many Israeli prisoners of war were tortured or killed.[367] Advancing Israeli forces, re-capturing land taken by the Syrians early in the war, came across the bodies of 28 Israeli soldiers who had been blindfolded with their hands bound and summarily executed.[368] In a December 1973 address to the National Assembly, Syrian Defense Minister Mustafa Tlass stated that he had awarded one soldier the Medal of the Republic for killing 28 Israeli prisoners with an axe, decapitating three of them and eating the flesh of one of his victims.[369][370] The Syrians employed brutal interrogation techniques utilizing electric shocks to the genitals. A number of Israeli soldiers taken prisoner on Mount Hermon were executed. Near the village of Hushniye, the Syrians captured 11 administrative personnel from the Golan Heights Force, all of whom were later found dead, blindfolded, and with their hands tied behind their backs. Within Hushniye, seven Israeli prisoners were found dead, and another three were executed at Tel Zohar. Syrian prisoners who fell into Israeli captivity confirmed that their comrades killed IDF prisoners.[371] A soldier from the Moroccan contingent fighting with Syrian forces was found to be carrying a sack filled with the body parts of Israeli soldiers which he intended to take home as souvenirs. The bodies of Israeli prisoners who were killed were stripped of their uniforms and found clad only in their underpants, and Syrian soldiers removed their dog tags to make identification of the bodies more difficult.[372]

Some Israeli POWs reported having their fingernails ripped out while others were described as being turned into human ashtrays as their Syrian guards burned them with lit cigarettes.[373] A report submitted by the chief medical officer of the Israeli army notes that, "the vast majority of (Israeli) prisoners were exposed during their imprisonment to severe physical and mental torture. The usual methods of torture were beatings aimed at various parts of the body, electric shocks, wounds deliberately inflicted on the ears, burns on the legs, suspension in painful positions and other methods."[374] Following the conclusion of hostilities, Syria would not release the names of prisoners it was holding to the International Committee of the Red Cross and in fact, did not even acknowledge holding any prisoners despite the fact they were publicly exhibited by the Syrians for television*

Then there was the rejection of a possible peace agreement by Arafat - of course it’s complicated and different opinions abound

The Palestinians in Gaza could have not voted in Hamas and spent millions building tunnels into Israel and Egypt and on 1000s of Rockets to fire at Israel instead of spending it for the benefit of their people. There’s also a lot of wealth in Gaza as well as poverty.

They’ve unfortunately made a lot of decisions that have impacted negatively on the Palestinian population but still they are infantilised as having no part to play in where they find themselves today.

Everything is the fault of Israel

You just cannot talk about Palestine on this forum
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