You just cannot talk about Palestine on this forum

[Faffandahalf]

Why has the last thread been taken down with a ‘goady op’ message?
What’s so goady about asking why we can’t criticise the actions of Israel?
Don’t even give a shit this is a TAAT and will get zapped.

Palestine exists. Ethnic cleansing is happening. And every single thread gets taken down.

Only one person on that thread shouted anti semitism. Every one else was mostly in agreement about what is happening and it still gets zapped.

I’ll once again direct people to friends of al Aqsa on Instagram and Twitter in the hopes people see this and would like some real information.

Israel is an occupying oppressor committing genocide and the Palestinians are an oppressed people. There is no comparison in the force power and might of these two groups esp when one has the backing and funding of the US.

Seriously pissed at MN for refusing to allow truths to be told about the situation

I think that was a step too far- I would never say I hate an Israeli, or I hate Israelis. We are all human beings, and closest of cousins. What I do hate is the govt. I think Netanyahu is a prick. I think anyone who supports him and his party are misguided.

Many people hate Palestinians, they see us trouble wherever we go. Even the Jordanians don't like us despite having a Palestinian queen. We're fucked wherever we go.

I do have anecdotes of Israeli people smirking and telling my family to our faces that we are scum- I was 7 at the time and we were just shopping. I've heard others say prisons are not big enough.

There is deep rooted hate towards Palestinians from Israelis too. All this hate needs to stop.

Also, not all Palestinians are savage barbarians who threw people of the roof

Palestinians are not all Muslim
Palestinians can be Queer and accepted amongst the Palestinian community. The US still has conversion Therapy. Thatcher did fuck all for gay rights in the 80's- Section 28.
LGBTQ+ are Universal issues, every country, EVERY country and its people need to do more on this front, so please don't put Tel Aviv on a progressive pedestal to make us come across as Neanderthals.

We are not a monolith

Palestinians can be perfectly happy living amongst Israelis in PEACE
Palestinians muslims are not ISIS
Palestinian Muslims are not Hamas
Hamas is Gaza related not East Jerusalem or West Bank. Someone needs to the media this as they have no clue it seems.
There is always an instigator- and even though I hate them, Hamas is not always it.

I would like to be more educated on this next point- I've heard many Jewish people come out in support of Palestinians, and against the Israeli govt. I've heard many Arabs, many in the west and many across the globe condemn the actions of the Israeli govt and its insistence on expanding settlements even illegally. I would like to be pinpointed to Arabs, Jewish people and people in the west and beyond, who have outright said that illegal settlements are fine, should be encouraged and there is nothing to see here and that this whole thing is blown out of proportion and that Palestinians are taking the piss.

@ConfusedAdultFemale

After reading some of the info on Israel, I feel sorry for both sides. They’ve all had it rough.

It's a sad situation that unfortunately will, I suspect take more than a generation to resolve itself. The level of distrust on both sides is such that the kind of compromise that would be required - especially in a time where nationalism around the world is on the rise - is practically impossible to contemplate. It pains me to see how much dislike exists between humans at the moment.

@JustFedUpOfThis

Every Jewish parent I know is terrified that a conflict many thousands miles away will result in something horrible for them.

Whilst every Palestinian family is wondering the same, except their conflict is on top of their heads.

Idiots will conflate Israeli and Jewish and I’m deeply ashamed of British people who do so. But idiots also conflate Terrorists and Palestinians and that has extremely grave consequence for innocent Palestinian civilians.

Just like I don’t hold Muslims to account for the actions of ISIS, I don’t hold Jewish people to account for the actions of Israel. The problem is Israel and its government.

Don't try to woke-shame me. I feel for the Palestinians. Just as I do for Uighur Muslims, Venezuelans being starved to death by their govt and others. Sorry for my lack of humanity but I'm a British citizen and I'm concerned for other Jewish parents who are scared stiff right now.

There are many people who have had reason in history to dislike the British government for example because of its foreign policy but I would hope that there aren't lots of people who dislike Britain as a country

Well I hate to tell you, but there are. It's not realistic to think that everyone will separate the two. Especially if Brits think it's their 'foreign policy' that people are upset about.

As an American, I completely understand why people around the world hate my country, and I'm not surprised when people try to attack it. But, it's a huge and powerful country, there is no sense of existential threat, of being erased.

Israel is a tiny country -- I think it's even smaller than the Midlands. It literally could be erased from the map, not by Hamas, but by other states in the region.

It would obviously be much better if Israel dealt with this by making peace with its neighbours and the Palestinians, maintaining good relations and regional stability, basically making people not want to destroy it. This is the path Rabin tried in the 1990s. But for a lot of reasons, the Israeli government has rejected this idea since then. It has gone to the other extreme, relying on force.

It's completely understandable that Palestinians and Arabs hate the Israeli government, unfortunately that reinforces the Israeli sense of siege and so it continues on the same path, which of course means that the hostility continues. There is no way out of this spiral without something dramatic changing.

[quote Acidburn]@JustFedUpOfThis could you please provide us with a plan of how should Israel fight the terrorists that are hiding within civilians? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what to do, not what NOT to do.[/quote]
Maybe I’ll start thinking once you admit that Israel has stolen, and continues to steal, land from the Palestinians. And also once Israel hands back land that it stole in 1967 as required by UN resolution 242.

Once there is an admission of guilt, then perhaps we can look at how we move forward. And to be clear, the answer will not be the destruction of Israel; the land is home to many Israelis and removing them from land they have lived on, regardless of whether it belong to Israel in first instance, is wrong.

But Israel needs to stop playing the innocent victim card before any progress can be made.

I would like to be pinpointed to Arabs, Jewish people and people in the west and beyond, who have outright said that illegal settlements are fine, should be encouraged and there is nothing to see here and that this whole thing is blown out of proportion and that Palestinians are taking the piss

You can start by googling American evangelicals + Israel

Horrifying

For anyone interested...

There’s a Palestinian short on Netflix called “The Present”, it was nominated for best short at the Oscars this year. It’s 24 mins long and follows a family through the West Bank trying to make it through the day, v authentic and brilliantly made but heartbreaking.

Also, a pp mentioned yesterday about boycotting companies like a lot of us did with South Africa. Whilst I was shopping in Sainsbury’s earlier I noticed they had a huge range of ‘Sabra’ hummus and dips (the ones with the green lids, seem to be quite popular atm). If you want to boycott companies this would be the one to start with - the company is joint owned by Strauss, an Israeli company that has documented ties to human rights violations against Palestinians. The Strauss Group sends care packages to the particularly brutal Golani Brigade of the IDF. Just to rub salt into the wound further - Sabra is the name of a massacre site (in Lebanon) where thousands of Palestinian and Lebanese Muslims were killed in 1982.

Aside from the Evangelicals- who in my opinion are betraying Christians in the region. Also, supporting and funding practices in the country, and the govt to fast track the arrival of the Messiah and bring upon the Rapture and have us all killed, including Jewish people, so that only they, the Evangelicals can be saved.
It's a fucking joke.

@dreamingbohemian

There are many people who have had reason in history to dislike the British government for example because of its foreign policy but I would hope that there aren't lots of people who dislike Britain as a country

Well I hate to tell you, but there are. It's not realistic to think that everyone will separate the two. Especially if Brits think it's their 'foreign policy' that people are upset about.

As an American, I completely understand why people around the world hate my country, and I'm not surprised when people try to attack it. But, it's a huge and powerful country, there is no sense of existential threat, of being erased.

Israel is a tiny country -- I think it's even smaller than the Midlands. It literally could be erased from the map, not by Hamas, but by other states in the region.

It would obviously be much better if Israel dealt with this by making peace with its neighbours and the Palestinians, maintaining good relations and regional stability, basically making people not want to destroy it. This is the path Rabin tried in the 1990s. But for a lot of reasons, the Israeli government has rejected this idea since then. It has gone to the other extreme, relying on force.

It's completely understandable that Palestinians and Arabs hate the Israeli government, unfortunately that reinforces the Israeli sense of siege and so it continues on the same path, which of course means that the hostility continues. There is no way out of this spiral without something dramatic changing.

Of course, I appreciate that but we can all do ourselves a favour in general and try not to hold entire groups of people responsible for the actions of their governments such as with Israel or in the case of Palestinian people, Hamas.

On a separate but kind of related note, the lady also who is concerned about the safety of Jewish children in other countries is absolutely right. It wouldn't be the first time that innocent children have been attacked. Much as I feel like it shouldn't even need to be said, it's painfully upsetting to think of Israeli and Palestinian children being scared stiff as this violence is going on. There isn't one person on here who couldn't be moved to tears thinking about it.

Also,

@MuswellHillBilly18

Don't try to woke-shame me

Ah - the Daily Mail has arrived. It’s always a sign of a week the woke is invoked.

Come back when you have a grown-up response to the issues raised. I have condemned anti Semitic bevaiour several times. It is abhorrent and unjustifiable in any circumstances. To repeat, yet again, my criticism is squarely pointed at Israel.

[quote Acidburn]@JustFedUpOfThis could you please provide us with a plan of how should Israel fight the terrorists that are hiding within civilians? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what to do, not what NOT to do.[/quote]
If a non-state armed group is hiding among civilians, there is no legal way to attack them (save in some extreme and unlikely scenario).

So you either say fuck it and attack anyway, which is clearly what Israel is doing, or you do a whole raft of other things. You find non-civilian targets to strike, you can send special forces in on targeted missions, you try to degrade the group's capabilities over time, obviously you can take all sorts of defensive measures. Most important, you try to resolve the situation politically.

Israel has been able to assassinate Iranian nuclear scientists in Iran, if they want to take out the Hamas leadership in Gaza, they can find ways other than bombing entire buildings and neighbourhoods.

Israel seems determined to have a ground war. And refuses to discuss any ceasefire.

Hamas just announced that they are planning to bomb the airports. Not sure what ceasefire is possible here, as Israel doesn't negotiate with terrorists.

@piddocktrumperiness Then have a look at the Middle East Forum in the US (if you can stomach it)

There are quite a few right-wing 'think tanks' in the US like this

I have learnt that it is semantics when it comes to Israel. When we say America/or The Americans in the context of war, we mean the govt. When we say the Chinese/China should have been forthcoming about covid- we mean officials, we do not mean every single American citizen nor do we mean every single Chinese citizen, or those who are ethnically Chinese.

For some strange reason, unless you put GOVERNMENT after Israel/Israeli, you are branded as hating all jews and all Israelis no matter what.

The conflation is crazy

@TheReluctantPhoenix

*Israel is surrounded by countries whose averred aim is to drive ‘the Jews’ into the sea. Hamas will not join negotiations on the basis of recognising Israel as a state.

The reality is that most countries were ‘created’ politically by a series of wars and population displacements. I am not sure how the U.S would react if its Native American population demanded an independent homeland, including sharing N.Y.

The Jews, due to the Shoah, arguably deserve a safe space more than most.

There is a solution possible. Israel needs to give up some of the settlements and control its extremist (racist) population, who are mainly recent immigrants anyway. They also need to find a way to co-exist with the Palestinian areas, and somehow share Jerusalem (as was pretty much the case when I visited in the early 80s as a student).

However, in return, Hamas needs to recognise Israel, and the Golan Heights need to be recognised as part of Israel. They are not v habitable and are only desired as a staging post to invade Israel, something no Israeli could possibly countenance.

Reconciliation and trade is the way ahead, However, blaming Israel for overreacting as rockets are being fired at their civilians is not sensible.

Of course, casualties are asymmetric. However, given that Israel could bomb the Gaza Strip out of existence and take 100s of 1000s of lives, their responses are (in terms of war) moderate. Compare it to the US response to 9/11 for instance.*

Absolutely agree.

And Israel is at fault for allowing the settlements and should be willing to deal with this as previous governments have in the past but Palestinians would also need to lay something on the table

'There’s a Palestinian short on Netflix called “The Present”, it was nominated for best short at the Oscars this year. It’s 24 mins long and follows a family through the West Bank trying to make it through the day, v authentic and brilliantly made but heartbreaking.'

Thanks, will check that out.

'Not sure what ceasefire is possible here, as Israel doesn't negotiate with terrorists.' - well, given that there have been outbreaks of fighting and ceasefires someone somewhere is negogiating.

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@MuswellHillBilly18

Don't try to woke-shame me

Ah - the Daily Mail has arrived. It’s always a sign of a week the woke is invoked.

Come back when you have a grown-up response to the issues raised. I have condemned anti Semitic bevaiour several times. It is abhorrent and unjustifiable in any circumstances. To repeat, yet again, my criticism is squarely pointed at Israel.[/quote]
I'll rise above the Daily Mail jibe. So original.
You may not seek to conflate antisemitism with anti Zionism but others are. Happened in 2014 and is happening again. There has been a 250% rise in antisemitic incidents in a week in the Uk. Now I hear constantly 'you may find Gaza abhorrent but what are you gonna do about it?' Good question. So I say 'what are you gonna do about the way in which anti Israel hate is morphing into antisemitism?' Because it is. And it's going to get much much worse.

@Acidburn why do you keep saying Israel doesn't negotiate with terrorists? They did a deal with the PLO.

For some strange reason, unless you put GOVERNMENT after Israel/Israeli, you are branded as hating all jews and all Israelis no matter what.

I don’t like or agree with the current Israeli government at all. My issue is those sitting safe in the UK who can only bring an “Israel = evil, Palestinians = innocent victims” rhetoric. It’s generally been indoctrinated into us from childhood through schools, universities, politicians etc

So I've learnt to practise always putting Govt after the word Israeli/Israel because it is highly sensitive and I just want talk policy and politics- not religion or people.

@dreamingbohemian- What is their rationale for claiming illegal settlements and eviction of families after living in a place for over 70 yrs is ok? What is their rationale for not treating citizens equally and for supporting discrimination?

Scrap that- We're talking America and land grabs, and discrimination. Oh boy.

Israel seems determined to have a ground war. And refuses to discuss any ceasefire.

And Hamas/Gaza seems determined to fire rockets into Israel KNOWING there will be retaliation where there civilians will be hurt/killed

Also I’m rushing so can’t provide links but yesterday’s CNN interview with Mohammed El-Kurd live from occupied Jerusalem was simply brilliant. It was regarding the situation in Sheikh Jarrah and he was so eloquent when put on the spot in such a tense situation. Well worth a watch.

@Ikeasucks Yes I really believe that the rhetoric needs to change. I. think people should be educated on what is going on in that region and beyond and most importantly the role of the British Empire/ Govt in creating the clusterfucks and perpetuating them.

I've had enough of Tudor history taught in schools- We need to let that go now.

Quite like Ikea :)

I don't know why governments declare that they don't negotiate with 'terrorists' - UK, France, Spain, Israel, USA. They all have and do. We all know the have and do.
All the macho bravado just damages their credibility. Not to mention that just yelling 'terrorist' your enemies doesn't actually make them terrorists.