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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To expect a child of three with ASD to sit nicely at the table?

225 replies

Damnrightwrong · 15/03/2021 07:46

Is it unreasonable and/or unrealistic to expect an an autistic three year old to sit nicely at the table at dinner time?

YABU - expecting too much of the child
YANBU - they should be able to sit nicely, regardless of a disability

OP posts:
activitythree · 15/03/2021 12:14

@Sirzy

Most research seems to suggest about 30-50% of those diagnosed with autism also have ADHD so not nearly always.

The comorbidities can include issues surrounding movement but that doesn’t make it a movement disorder and movement isn’t part of the diagnosis process.

This is what I meant but was too mad to write properly. Mostly because of my autism Grin

Loopylobes · 15/03/2021 13:01

Autism often occurs alongside proprioceptive difficulties that make sitting still much harder and the effort of doing so can be disruptive to a child's ability to learn. Insisting a child sits 'nicely' could mean his wider disability affects him more profoundly at these times.

If the child has been moved to a different room to benefit the staff or his peers, it is clear disability discrimination.

If the preschool staff feel that moving him to a different room would support his ability to learn important social skills, there are steps they should take before implementing this:

  1. Observations and discussions between the staff to establish the root of the behaviour, e.g. is there a sensory input he finds difficult at these times?

  2. Observations and discussions around whether it is developmentally appopriate to expect him to be able to sit at the table for long periods. A basic principle of teaching is that the child must be capable of learning what you are teaching them.

  3. A conversation with the parents, explaining what has been observed and asking for their input. This should include whether it's an appropriate focus, what strategies work at home and what has failed, what strategies do they feel would be useful to try, what might be the impact on their child of different strategies, etc.

  4. If it is decided that this is an appropriate thing to work on, a plan is put together setting out all the agreed strategies, who will implement them, success criteria and setting a time for review, again involving parents.

If learning this skill isn't in the child's best interests at that time, the staff should be supported to accept his disability and find ways to enable him to participate in mealtimes ina developmentally appropriate way, while working with the other children to help them understand the decisions that are being made in the context of understand the very basic principles of equality and diversity.

It would never be appropriate to routinely isolate a child because of their disability unless it is considered by those supporting him to be a supportive short-term measure that will enable him to learn something that he is capable of achieving, would be beneficial to him and would not cause him distress.

Mumofsend · 15/03/2021 13:22

Autism is not a bloody movement disorder. Its a social communication disorder. Sensory related need for movement is due to sensory processing difficulties, not autism.

GrumpyHoonMain · 15/03/2021 13:28

@activitythree

Also. If his behaviour is distracting the other children then yes it's absolutely ok for him to be removed in order to work on the skills that may enable him to gradually return. He may always need to eat separately, don't see it as a slight against him though, he is distracting the other children because he isn't coping and that is the key factor. He isn't coping.
Yes agreed. Mealtimes and the ability to feed yourself is an essential skill for kids with and without SEN. Hungry kids don’t get work done at school, they get distracted, and existing behavioural problems get worse.

Really sympathise with you OP but the other kids should be receiving the attention they need at mealtimes in the most appropriate way possible too.

5zeds · 15/03/2021 14:02

@GrumpyHoonMain has inclusion totally passed you by??Shock. We no longer exclude people because they can’t make their disabilities go away when they inconvenience others. We don’t just tolerate disabled people in the uk, we support them to participate. Nursery should be supporting this child to participate and supporting his more able peers to include him.

Sockwomble · 15/03/2021 14:33

"Really sympathise with you OP but the other kids should be receiving the attention they need at mealtimes in the most appropriate way possible too."

The OP's child has 1:1 so no staff attention is being taken from the other children.

Psychobobble · 15/03/2021 14:37

@activitythree

Also. If his behaviour is distracting the other children then yes it's absolutely ok for him to be removed in order to work on the skills that may enable him to gradually return. He may always need to eat separately, don't see it as a slight against him though, he is distracting the other children because he isn't coping and that is the key factor. He isn't coping.
Disagree.

He can be allowed to eat separately if he prefers to; if he finds the setting too noisy or is getting distressed.
He should not be excluded from eating with others for reasons related to his disability as this is less favourable treatment.

How the bloody hell is he meant to learn to sit and eat with a small group of others appropriately if he is denied this very act?

springtimesunshine · 15/03/2021 14:38

Inclusion is so so important, and I am glad we're way past the days of 'sending the special kids' off somewhere else so that they don't disrupt the 'normal kids'. That attitude makes me sick. BUT forcing a child into a situation they aren't happy with or able to cope with isn't inclusion.

It really depends why he's being 'excluded'. If it's because he's distracting the other children and it's almost as a punishment then no that is not ok. Not at all and I would remove my child from a setting that did that.

If it's because that's how he's happy and calm, because he cannot cope with the larger groups and it's specifically for his benefit then that's fine, better than fine really it's beneficial.

If all that's happening is he needs a movement break - not uncommon at all especially at THREE YEARS OLD - then they just need to let him get up for a minute then gently guide him back. Egg timers work well for this, any visual aid will likely help. So 'Sam, you can stand up and get all of your wiggles out until the egg timer runs out and then it's time to sit down and eat our sandwich please' is better than just ordering him to sit down nicely and expecting him to be capable of doing so. And that's if he has that level of understanding and no learning difficulties, he may well have OP hasn't clarified. Would have worked with DD but she has no learning difficulties and is cognitively very able. He's also at an age where very basic comic strips might help to teach him the social skills, why and how we sit nicely at mealtimes although I would be gobsmacked if it worked well with a child so young. It'll be a work in progress for a long while I expect. Does he have a visual timetable at the setting OP? One of those would probably help as well. So he knows what's coming Now, Then and Later and can mentally prepare for the transition to lunchtime.

As I said my dd (who has an EHCP because of her ASD) eats her lunch separately from the class in reception because she cannot cope with the big group as close quarters or the echoey noisy hall. She and the other little girl with ASD (and an EHCP) eat in a nice middle area with their alternating 1-1s. They then go and join in with the others for outside play. Both me and the other little girls mum are happy with this (we talk!) as are the children. They eat well - essential for their concentration in the afternoon. - , in comfort, not stressed or overloaded. perfectly happy. But they are being well supported and the school is catering to their additional needs by doing this. They are not sending them off somewhere else because they're a pain in the bum (although no doubt they would be if expected to sit at the table in the big hall with the others).

OP feel free to PM if you want a chat. I've not long gone through the EHCP process with mine and I know how hard it is especially when parents of NT children (or worse, early years 'professionals') don't get it!

Mumofsend · 15/03/2021 14:40

If a NT child can not eat because they are being distracted by another perhaps they need teaching to ignore the distraction...

2bazookas · 15/03/2021 15:15

Don't children with ASD tend to like fixed routines?

If she's like that, then involving her in a fixed calm orderly routine around mealtimes could be comforting and reassuring to her. With any child, everyday routines are how they learn.

We all ate together  round a table,  ever since the babies were in highchairs with a bib and sippy cup..  By the time they graduated to real chairs and cutlery  the sociable pattern  was just habit.
Moelwynbach · 15/03/2021 15:28

Depends very much on the child. You do realose that all three years olds with ASD are not the same just as all three year olds without ASD are not the same?

activitythree · 15/03/2021 15:29

We all ate together round a table, ever since the babies were in highchairs with a bib and sippy cup.. By the time they graduated to real chairs and cutlery the sociable pattern was just habit.

Ah, that's where we have all been going wrong.

BrumBoo · 15/03/2021 15:43

@activitythree

Ah, that's where we have all been going wrong.

Grin

Always great to hear from others with zero idea that we just need a firm routine with our children to sort their issues. I always enjoyed this advice for my older one with sensory processing disorder, that he just needs to understand that sometimes he has to have a carb other than potatoes, or that with a bit of distraction they'd get over trying to claw certain clothes off. Sure thing...

Good old 'routine', answer to everything child related on MN.

Sirzy · 15/03/2021 15:43

If only it was as simple as a high chair and a bib!

Mamamamasaurus · 15/03/2021 16:00

Have they implemented this change for your DS or the other children? If the other children, they need some training on Disability Awareness. If it's for his benefit, I'd be asking for their justification around that.

I'd also be looking for another nursery.

AdditionalCharacter · 15/03/2021 16:12

@2bazookas you're confusing routine with behaviour. Yes a child wi5 ASD might know that at x time we eat, doesn't mean that they will conform to the standards set.

There may be various factors that make it hard for them sit where they are. My DS couldn't go into hall for assemblies until he was in Y3 because of the lighting and the echoing noises. It was a long process to even get him anywhere near the door.

Mumofsend · 15/03/2021 16:37

Mine is incredibly routine led. Routine doesn't make her physically able to sit still

Soontobe60 · 15/03/2021 16:38

[quote activitythree]@Soontobe60

Yes, but your response really didn't match my post. I just wondered if you had accidentally quoted me, your response here..

You’re totally wrong. A child with ASD who wanders off during mealtimes isn’t ‘behaving as he pleases’. Autism isn’t where children are just naughty. Isolating any child with a disability because they don’t ‘fit in’ with the norms is what used to happen back in the last century. Thankfully its not so common these days.
If you think he’s ‘naughty’ you clearly know nothing about ASD.

...was absolutely the opposite of what I said.

[/quote]
So sorry @activitythree. I’ve just re read all of your posts and realise I clearly didn’t read the one I quoted properly. I now realise that actually we have very similar opinions on how children with ASD need to be supported in school / pre school. I realised that the part I quoted was you addressing other people’s posts!
Once again, apologies.

Soontobe60 · 15/03/2021 16:41

[quote BrumBoo]@activitythree

Ah, that's where we have all been going wrong.

Grin

Always great to hear from others with zero idea that we just need a firm routine with our children to sort their issues. I always enjoyed this advice for my older one with sensory processing disorder, that he just needs to understand that sometimes he has to have a carb other than potatoes, or that with a bit of distraction they'd get over trying to claw certain clothes off. Sure thing...

Good old 'routine', answer to everything child related on MN.[/quote]
I’d say a routine is more important for the adults supporting the child than for the child itself. But it needs to be massively understood that a routine also needs to be very flexible!
It took me some time to fully understand sensory processing issues, but the main thing I’ve learned is every child is different and needs a different approach.

Soontobe60 · 15/03/2021 16:44

@Mumofsend

If a NT child can not eat because they are being distracted by another perhaps they need teaching to ignore the distraction...
If only it were so simple... I dont have ASD, I suffer from misphonia. I cant sit and eat near anyone who is eating noisily. I try my hardest to ignore them and not stab them with my fork. I now know if I’m in that situation I have to walk away.
Punxsutawney · 15/03/2021 16:51

Ds is 16 and way beyond a highchair and bib. He hasn't eaten a meal with us at home for about a year. He has significant difficulties with sensory processing. He barely eats anything now but what he does eat, has to be in his bedroom.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 16/03/2021 09:32

I dont have ASD, I suffer from misphonia. I cant sit and eat near anyone who is eating noisily. I try my hardest to ignore them and not stab them with my fork. I now know if I’m in that situation I have to walk away.

I totally sympathise with that Soontobe.

I have felt physically ill when sharing a table with some people - eating with moths open, shovelling food down and guzzling noisily etc - it's revolting.

NeedaLittleNap · 16/03/2021 09:35

Maybe the 3 year old feels exactly the same.

Soontobe60 · 16/03/2021 09:52

@NeedaLittleNap

Maybe the 3 year old feels exactly the same.
Maybe he does. Any support he has should be linked to his needs, not the needs of others. If he prefers to eat on his own that’s fine.
activitythree · 16/03/2021 12:43

@Soontobe60

Thanks, I appreciate that.

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