To expect a child of three with ASD to sit nicely at the table?

[Damnrightwrong]

Is it unreasonable and/or unrealistic to expect an an autistic three year old to sit nicely at the table at dinner time?

YABU - expecting too much of the child
YANBU - they should be able to sit nicely, regardless of a disability

OP, does the pre school have an individual trained in how to deal with ASD children?

They may think that taking him to his own space is helping, once he is seated separately does he eat his lunch better?

Is their explanation simply that he is a distraction to others or have they explained the supposed benefit to him.

The nursery are not unreasonable to want to teach him to sit and eat at table. They don’t appear to be doing that though do they? They appear to be excluding him rather than teaching him.

Presumably the op’s child is still eating lunch at a table somewhere though? Just not in the main hall.

I haven't witnessed in person his behaviour at lunch time (there) but the complaints are that he keeps getting up and running off and they want him to be able to sit at the table properly as it's important to learn life skills.

This is completely unacceptable on their part.

If him eating separately to the other children helps him then I'm ok with that, I just feel they're being unreasonable and realistic to expect him to sit still at a table in the first place.

You are absolutely right here OP.

I just feel they're being unreasonable and realistic to expect him to sit still at a table in the first place.

Yes, yes they are.

"It was such a simple thing, yet I wondered how many children who 'can't sit still at the table' are similar. That they feel unsettled/unbalanced when they can't put their feet on the floor."

This is actually pretty common with children with asd who struggle to sit in seating which doesn't feel secure or give them the sensory feedback they need. There really should be an OT assessment to see if different or more specialist seating is required.

If him eating separately to the other children helps him then I'm ok with that, I just feel they're being unreasonable and unrealistic to expect him to sit still at a table in the first place - edit.

Asking to much of a neurotypical 3yo let alone with ASD.
Of course some 3yos can sit nicely at the table whether or not they have ASD but the vast majority have a limited attention span at that age

I hate the whole 'they have to learn' narrative. They will. In their own time.

My DD would not have sat still at 3 unless there was a phone with Peppa Pig on in front of her eyes. Now she's 10, she sits and eats and chats with us most of the time, but still occasionally prefers to eat by herself or will need a book at the table or might want to get up halfway through the meal to get something.

The pre school are BU here.

Movement breaks are standard reasonable adjustments and are frequently on an ehcp.

Well it totally depends on the child. My five year old was diagnosed with ASD at three and she's always sat nicely at the table, at home or elsewhere and she definitely did at three. But she is very much a child who thinks rules are totally rigid (part of the ASD) and a 'rule' is to sit nicely at the table! If it's noisy or unpredictable etc she would cover her ears and close her eyes (and I would remove her, because she would clearly be feeling distressed).

Because of having a child with ASD I perhaps know many more children with ASD that I would if I didn't. The vast majority of them don't (or rather, can't) sit nicely to a table if they're not at home or somewhere familiar and lots of them struggle to do it at home too.

Haven't read the whole thread. 25 years ago this was our situation. My daughter (many years off getting a diagnosis, but already a quirky character) didn't want to sit quietly with the other children at the table for ten minutes out of a 2.5 hour session while the staff had their coffee break. She wasn't interested in the squash and biscuits and would have preferred to carry on playing. This was a huge issue in the eyes of the staff. I felt it showed they had no grasp of what it was reasonable to expect of 2 and 3yos. Taken with a number of other concerns, I decided she was better off out of there. No regrets.

Just to add as an adult with autism I still struggle hugely with "sitting nicely at the table", don't get me wrong I can and do do it, but it puts me under immense stress. If we're eating out as a family I have very regular breaks away from the table and indeed whole restaurant. It may look like I'm taking toilet or cigarette breaks, but actually I'm just getting away from it all for a few minutes.
At home I eat in my bedroom by myself, so I don't need to conform to the whole sitting at the table business.

One of my ASD children is similar, we make allowances, pretty much as it seems your child's pre-school has done, again he eats in his room, although this is mostly because he has severe food aversions and has been known to throw up just because someone is eating a strange (to him) food. He's now year 6 and both we and school are still working on getting him to sit at a table, use cutlery etc, but in pre-school he was allowed to wander round, eat a bit, wander a bit more. The other children quickly accepted that is how he is. You need to take it up with the pre-school senco, work out strategies together and ensure it's in his ECHP

It's sad that he has to sit alone. Maybe this isn't the nursery for him although I can see that they have made a provision for him. I'm not sure what else they could do, at the same time teaching the others to sit at the table.
I do think 3yo can sit at the table and finish their lunch without wandering around though, this happened at both my dc nursery.

Ive just read some of your updates OP.

So my five year old DD had her lunch separate to the other children in her class at school. Not as a punishment (because as I said below she does sit and eat nicely) but because she cannot cope with all of the children in the noisy big hall. She has her lunch in a room with her 1-1 support and another little girl who has ASD. They love having their lunch together in the quiet, then they go and join in with playtime after. She's in reception.

It's a normal adaptation to make but it shouldn't be used as a punishment "you sit on your own because you can't behave!" sort of thing. He's THREE. Little more than a toddler FFS.

@Damnrightwrong

Thank you for all of the replies

He doesn't have his ECHP yet but gets alot of 1-1 support.

He doesn't get overwhelmed at lunch time because of eating with the other children, he just struggles to stay sat down in one place. Eloping and running off is a prominent trait and he's very fidgety (sensory)

At home we encourage him to sit down when he eats but it's common for him to get up and cross the room then come back. He does that a handful of times until he's finished his food and we have no issue with it. If we were to force him to remain seated he would get stressed.

The best way to have him sit still at the table is to give him his tablet with a favourite cartoon on but that isn't allowed at pre school, understandably.

I haven't witnessed in person his behaviour at lunch time (there) but the complaints are that he keeps getting up and running off and they want him to be able to sit at the table properly as it's important to learn life skills.

If him eating separately to the other children helps him then I'm ok with that, I just feel they're being unreasonable and realistic to expect him to sit still at a table in the first place.

I don't see how him sitting alone at a table is going to teach him how to stay sat down. I mean presumably he still gets up and walks off when he's on his own, and now he's also not benefiting from seeing how the other kids behave... my DD2 has ADHD and she was/is a bit of a bolter, but "peer pressure" helped her learn at least that she was expected to stay in her seat. It sounds to me as if they've done it to make their own lives easier. DD2's nursery just put her on the end seat and let her get on with it. Now at 9 she has the local equivalent here of an EHCP and as a PP said, she's allowed to take movement breaks even now.

If you can't move settings, then I would suggest the strategy a PP suggested with the sand timer.
They stay at the table for the length of the sand timer (1 minute) then they can walk round for the lengthof the timer, then they come back and sit for the length of the timer. If he is a good eater, then would say food stays on the table, so it is also eat /walk/eat /walk.

This is a positive strategy in that everyone can see that he is being encouraged to move towards sitting, veyr slowly, at his pace, but also that he is allowed to walk round, and is not being naughty etc etc, but is encouraged to walk round for that minute, and then come back again afterwards.
It reframes what is going on.

It would be an unreasonable expectation for an NT 3 year old.
My 16 y/o and my 13 y/o both dx ASD have trouble 'sitting nicely'.
That's because their proprioception is off (internal sensing of where their body is in space) so they fall off the chair, bump things, drop things (dyspraxia) and generally I want to weep. I try to balance the line between 'it's okay you are at home just be yourself' and 'practice for when you are out there in the big world and people take the piss'.
The former usually wins.
Mine are older and were never 'runners' but rule bound sit still types.
It sounds like nursery is discriminating (possibly unintentionally).
Only you can work out whether this will be helpful for your child now or in the future.

He may need

• a quieter environment / small group
• a table slightly away from the others but so he is still in the same space
• a regulating activity before the demand to learn / sit at the table, he is seeking movement so maybe he needs physical activity just before lunch.
• or massage
• Or a weighted cushion on his lap
• is he noise sensitive? Trial ear defenders
• observe when he is less active/ more regulated and what happens just prior to that
• try and build that sensation into his late morning
• short realistic goals like sitting for 5 minutes then movement, can his 1:1 take him out for movement and then return to the table, so he learns that movement is ok, but it happens somewhere else?

Depends... who’s expecting him to sit nicely? And what kind/degree’ of ASD are we talking about?

Also depends what you mean by nicely? How long for? My mother expects my neurotypical 3 year old to sit nicely at a dinner table. We think she does pretty well, eats most of her food, plus the bit we inevitably ask her to (just one more carrot and another bite of chicken), and more or less politely asks to get down. But she can’t sit still perfectly, there is wriggling going on, and especially not for hours afterwards while Granny makes boring conversation...

I would ask nursery about arranging an OT visit at nursery to help them plan to meet his needs

@Damnrightwrong

If him eating separately to the other children helps him then I'm ok with that, I just feel they're being unreasonable and unrealistic to expect him to sit still at a table in the first place - edit.

I think a conversation to establish WHY is probably needed OP. Explicitly what is the aim?well we found alone he only got up once and seemed more settled but in the group he didn't sit at all VS when he gets up in the group, the other children copy so he's a disruptive influence.

I would look for a more supportive and understanding nursery.

IME if a nursery or school don't get it, they never will. It's not like they've never looked an autistic child before. Their attitude is cultural, it is ingrained into the whole organisation, and changing it will be like trying to turn the titanic. And it will break you and your child trying.

My concern would be that they're not centring him in the plans - they're centring other children.

If it's really distracting for other kids, surely the first port of call would just be to pop him on the end of a table, so he can get up without causing too much disruption, or on a separate table but right next to the other kids. I'd understand putting him in a separate room if he's experiencing overwhelm, but from what you say that's not the case.

I'd question whether this is the right setting for him - the planning around adaptations sounds very un-nuanced and inflexible.

Also, just to add my voice to an OT assessment for hypermobility and how to work with it - I have a much older DC who's not ASD, but has been always been massively proprioceptively sensory-seeking, particularly out of the home....low and behold, hypermobile.

lo and behold, I mean

Sorry just seen your update. Sounds like the nursery have reasonable expectations but little understanding of his particular case, how hard he finds it and how much support he’ll need. Maybe they are worried it will disrupt the other kids and encourage them to all get up and run about? So they’re focusing on the group rather than the individual. This sounds very difficult. Hope you can have some productive conversations with them.