Pushy men who won't take "no" for an answer.

[LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour]

Inspired by another thread, but not a TAAT.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to get out of this, but I think it's to know whether IABU to still feel quite rankled about these experiences, all of which happened some time ago.

I'd also like to know whether this sort of thing is as common as it seems and whether (as I suspect is the case) I need to work on my boundaries.

1. Had been seeing someone for a while, purposefully not invited him to mine. He took it upon himself to travel to my local area at around 11pm, knowing I would feel obliged to invite him back. I made him sleep in the spare room, but he got into my bed the following morning.

2. Man was in my flat, quite early on (maybe third date). Went to bathroom and unexpectedly reappeared almost naked. Took me a lot of effort to get him to leave, and then he complained that he'd missed the last tube and had to get the night bus.

3. Man put a lot of pressure on me not to leave his house to go home. I then said I'd sleep in spare room, he wouldn't let me.

4. Man in my living room, having a bit of a snog. Asked to go to my bedroom. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

5. Having a meal with someone (first meeting, but not a date). He asked to come to my flat. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

These are all different men, and there are other experiences too. Am I just unlucky, am I a poor judge of character, or are all men like this?

Eckhart WTF is wrong with men these days*

So many of them seem to think that because they have heard of one woman having casual sex with a man, even if its just an urban myth, they extrapolate that all women are ready and willing to have casual sex, like willing little sex robots.

Male fantasy, as usual bearing little relation to reality. How alien the concept that women might prefer to get to know someone first, and that by propositioning her with casual sex, they are destroying their chances of having sex with her.

[quote MrMahoneysPants]@CherryValanc
Personally, I think we need more training for boys, preferably from primarily school age. They need to learn: their wants aren't more important and don't override a girl's wants What "no" means
About concent How to read a room.

There is a thread on here at the moment about mother who is upset that another mother told her child off. The 3 year old kissed her child and she said he shold not do it.

People pointing out that you can teach a child consent from day 1 were called loons. We live in a culture that tells boys they can have what they want, but we think we can ignore this and they will turn out to not be creeps. how?[/quote]
I partly read that thread. It's quite depressing isn't it. It's not right to prevent boys from doing whatever they want.

Girls however continue to be conditioned almost from birth as to defer to and consider others.

A seemingly small number of men behaves civilly and they get praise and recognition (though NAMLT) for a behaviour that is expect in women.

Women get castigated because a seemingly small number behave in an uncivil way accepted in men.

(Also note I meant consent not concent!)

@BlaBlaSmthSmth

You have misunderstood what I was saying, and swearing makes you sound like a teenager.

There is also all the advice openly given to men to be persistant, wear down women's resolve, initiate physical touching early on because they are less likely to say no later if you cross those boundaries in a small way first, get them inside your house etc etc etc. It can be found on the internet and generally spouted by PUAs.

There is also all the advice openly given to men to be persistant, wear down women's resolve, initiate physical touching early on because they are less likely to say no later if you cross those boundaries in a small way first, get them inside your house etc etc etc. It can be found on the internet and generally spouted by PUAs.

What is a PUA?

Pick up artists?

@miimblemomble

Pick up artists?

Yes, seems it is. Never heard of them before:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/05/pickup-artists-teaching-men-approach-women-industry-street-harassment

(Well, I mean I've heard the term pick-up artists before, but I didn't know it was an actual thing.)

[quote Eckhart]@BlaBlaSmthSmth

You have misunderstood what I was saying, and swearing makes you sound like a teenager.[/quote]
The word "fucking" makes a person sound like a teenager? That's news to me. It's a pretty common way of adding emphasis to what you're saying.
Telling someone that they sound like a teenager sounds like a pretty weak attempt at dismissing what they've said,

[quote MrMahoneysPants]@CherryValanc
Personally, I think we need more training for boys, preferably from primarily school age. They need to learn: their wants aren't more important and don't override a girl's wants What "no" means
About concent How to read a room.

There is a thread on here at the moment about mother who is upset that another mother told her child off. The 3 year old kissed her child and she said he shold not do it.

People pointing out that you can teach a child consent from day 1 were called loons. We live in a culture that tells boys they can have what they want, but we think we can ignore this and they will turn out to not be creeps. how?[/quote]
Which thread is that?

@BlaBlaSmthSmth

Telling someone that they sound like a teenager sounds like a pretty weak attempt at dismissing what they've said

I didn't weakly attempt to dismiss what you were saying, I openly and pointedly dismissed it. The thing about the swearing was additional. Try reading it again without the sentence about the swearing. You'll be able to see the dismissal more clearly.

[quote Eckhart]@BlaBlaSmthSmth

Telling someone that they sound like a teenager sounds like a pretty weak attempt at dismissing what they've said

I didn't weakly attempt to dismiss what you were saying, I openly and pointedly dismissed it. The thing about the swearing was additional. Try reading it again without the sentence about the swearing. You'll be able to see the dismissal more clearly.[/quote]
I did read the whole comment but I was addressing the part about swearing, and I was right about that. The word "fucking" doesn't make someone sound like a teen and I've honestly never heard that assumption before you said it.
As for your "open and pointed" dismissal, I don't see it. Telling someone that they've misunderstood without any further explanation is not the savage dismissal you think it is 😅.

Also, the last part of my comment wasn't solely aimed at you. Notice I was referencing the many occasions I've seen women pop up on this type of thread to 'what about', don't take it so personally.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4179696-To-be-upset-that-my-friend-disciplined-my-ds?pg=1

@LolaSmiles
There's a whole barrel of toxic attitudes to sex and relationships running throughout social life.

Many men don't like to hear your opinion on important matters unless it aligns with their own. And a great deal of women will ignore or dismiss when sexist attitudes are brought up because they've been sweeping these under the carpet for so long.

I am a people pleaser but in my experience, I only had one man who was dangerously persistent in not taking no for an answer. This person had described himself like a "gay best friend", except he wasn't gay at all and had only known me for a couple of months.

My experience taught me that there are men who will work to gain your trust, and say all the right things to manufacture an emotional bond so that they can get closer to you and test your boundaries. Because you trust that they are a "nice guy", you give the the benefit of the doubt but gradually they will bulldoze all over your boundaries because they have already crossed one, and what is one more?

This wasn't a normal thinking man, I believe, because most men in my experience would have backed off when I said no. This one just said "Your lips are saying no, but your eyes are saying something else" WTF?

Some men can be entitled when it comes to expectations in relationships, but I have never experienced anything like this before where rage, silent treatment, sarcasm, belittling, insults and reckless driving would be the response to a "no".

I'd like to think that men like him and those described in the op are the exception rather than the rule..

The article of the PUA is utterly depressing.

@BlaBlaSmthSmth

Telling someone that they've misunderstood without any further explanation is not the savage dismissal you think it is

You've got no idea what you're talking about.

Sorry for the derail, OP. Stopping the squabbling now.

@Ruminating2020 What is the PUA? Would you mind sharing the link, please?

As a woman who has resigned to the very possible likelihood that a large proportion of men come under this description is various guises, this is only further disheartening.

@ItisLikethis Pick Up Artist. The link was shared by @CherryValanc on this page.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/05/pickup-artists-teaching-men-approach-women-industry-street-harassment

Unfortunately a number of men exist who believe that women "play" hard to get. Are they taught this? But a lot are prepared to trample over anyone's boundaries.

@B33Fr33

Unfortunately a number of men exist who believe that women "play" hard to get. Are they taught this? But a lot are prepared to trample over anyone's boundaries.

I don't get that either. Where does this come from? Every no and sign of resistance I showed was somehow a challenge for the toxic person in my life to try again another time.

Surely half decent men do not keep pressuring others into things they are not comfortable with after the first no.

Truly sickening. I can't say I've never been approached in this manner or had a date disappointly unfold like this.

I shall either remain single for the years to come or settle down with a woman, me thinks.

I hear you OP. I think there is a fair bit of victim blaming going on here, probably from people who've never had the misfortune to find themselves in any of the situations you've described!

[quote Eckhart]@BlaBlaSmthSmth

Telling someone that they've misunderstood without any further explanation is not the savage dismissal you think it is

You've got no idea what you're talking about.

Sorry for the derail, OP. Stopping the squabbling now.[/quote]
What are you talking about, I've "no idea"?
There wouldn't have been a derail if you'd just explained how it "misunderstood" instead of name calling 🤷‍♀️

@ALongHardWinter

I hear you OP. I think there is a fair bit of victim blaming going on here, probably from people who've never had the misfortune to find themselves in any of the situations you've described!

Agreed! It's sickening how dismissive people can be. (Which was the point I was trying to make earlier before I got pounced on.)

Dare I suggest that perhaps it’s not such a good thing that having sex after two or three dates is seen as completely normal these days?

@CounsellorTroi

Dare I suggest that perhaps it’s not such a good thing that having sex after two or three dates is seen as completely normal these days?

Completely agree.

I never had sex with my DH for 3 months (around the 15th date,) some 30 years ago when we met.

Even now, no fucking way would I be doing it by the third date. It would be MONTHS for me...If he didn't want to wait, he could fuck off.

It was probably a man who suggested the 'must shag on the third date' rule.