Pushy men who won't take "no" for an answer.

[LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour]

Inspired by another thread, but not a TAAT.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to get out of this, but I think it's to know whether IABU to still feel quite rankled about these experiences, all of which happened some time ago.

I'd also like to know whether this sort of thing is as common as it seems and whether (as I suspect is the case) I need to work on my boundaries.

1. Had been seeing someone for a while, purposefully not invited him to mine. He took it upon himself to travel to my local area at around 11pm, knowing I would feel obliged to invite him back. I made him sleep in the spare room, but he got into my bed the following morning.

2. Man was in my flat, quite early on (maybe third date). Went to bathroom and unexpectedly reappeared almost naked. Took me a lot of effort to get him to leave, and then he complained that he'd missed the last tube and had to get the night bus.

3. Man put a lot of pressure on me not to leave his house to go home. I then said I'd sleep in spare room, he wouldn't let me.

4. Man in my living room, having a bit of a snog. Asked to go to my bedroom. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

5. Having a meal with someone (first meeting, but not a date). He asked to come to my flat. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

These are all different men, and there are other experiences too. Am I just unlucky, am I a poor judge of character, or are all men like this?

Men need to start telling other men what isnt acceptable. But first they need to notice. Predatory behaviour is prevalen. I can guarantee that some of your male friends behave like this.
If they are, they don't do it in front of me so I can't call them put for something I'm not aware of. My friends are all as boring as me in any case so are far more likely to spend their evenings painting model planes or something. Obviously some groups of males will egg each other on but I certainly would stand up if I encountered it. At work, I've thrown creeps out but if I came across one in a general public space, I have no power to do so. Neither would I stand a chance in a physical altercation. All I could do is make myself visible so that the presence of a witness might scare him off and I'd dial 999.

100% agree @menwhopushboundaries

@Eckhart:

I thought that having good boundaries meant that you decide what you want, and then you try to get people to do it.

Really would love to hear more about this, can you elaborate a bit more please?

I have a friend who is a probation officer. She works in female offending. She says that the worst thing about the clie ts she deals with is that they do not realise they can make their own decisions about their own lives. That their boundaries are poor and they are almost passengers in their lives.

This rings true for me. I didn't get on with my mother growing up. I believe today her behaviour towards me would be considered emotionally abusive. I grew up believing that I was worthless and that I was supposed to do as I was told (because my mother told me others knew best).

My relationships in early adulthood were an absolute car crash. In spite of being educated and at University, my life was something that happened to me as opposed to being as a result of my choices. After a ONS which I regretted I realised I had come to a turning point and that I had the ability no say no.

We need to teach children about this.

@Porridgeoat

How clearly and definitely are you saying no?

I would say it was absolutely clear. I was literally saying "no", multiple times.

If he won't take "no" for an answer then the next step needs to be "you need to leave", followed by "get out". Again, don't be afraid to call the police.

How clearly and definitely are you saying no?

Acca-fucking-scuse me???

Are we back in the 1980s?

Sorry @Porridgeoat - would you be kind enough to supply us all with yourscript script that will MAGICALLY and forcibly repel men who CHOOSE to decide that no means yes, meaning that women no longer have to tie themselves in knots to ensure that the word NO, means, erm... NO.

When you do, patent it and sell it for millions. Because you will become a billionaire overnight.

@DdraigGoch

If he won't take "no" for an answer then the next step needs to be "you need to leave", followed by "get out". Again, don't be afraid to call the police.

What happens when they won't

I can't stand men like this and will have nothing to do with them. They're so unattractive. The entire 3 weeks that I did online dating, it was basically only men who wanted casual sex. Its a real eye opener how many of them think its ok to just say to a stranger can they come over to yours that evening. I think I ended up arguing with every single one because I just straight out said that they were sleazy and unattractive.

Even the one decent one who I met up with for a walking date was only looking for casual hook ups because he didn't have time for a girlfriend. in his early forties. Described a fulfilling sexual encounter to me through online dating. I didn't even fancy him anyway.

When the majority of their conversation involves dating, failures at dating, relationships, lack of relationships, etc it generally a good sign that they are after casual sex.

@DdraigGoch

If he won't take "no" for an answer then the next step needs to be "you need to leave", followed by "get out". Again, don't be afraid to call the police.

Have you had to deal with a man who has refused to accept the word 'no' when expecting sex?

@Eckhart

I never want to experience that feeling of lack of agency again; it was quite horrendous

The thing is, unless you are being physically forced into something, the loss of agency is under your control, and nobody else's. Saying 'no' clearly doesn't mean just loudly saying 'no'. It should mean this, and it does, with people who respect you.

With people who don't respect you, it's a different story. For a start, do not get into this sort of situation with somebody until they have proven to you that they respect you. And if they don't hear your loud, clear 'no', you TELL them what the consequences are (ie you will not be in their presence any more; you leave, or you make them leave) or, you just go.

'I've said no, you didn't listen, so I'm going.' and you walk out.

The situation was complicated by the fact we were on holiday together so I couldn't just walk away and never see him again (at least, not without making various arrangements and spending a lot of money). Arguably agreeing to go away in the first place was a very bad idea, but that hadn't started to become apparent until very shortly before we went and I thought I was over-reacting to things (clearly I wasn't).

Why someone would behave like that, I don't know, but I would hope I'd be better at spotting the signs now.

For someone who is fully intent on forcing you, I’m sure a simple no will not stop them. You would have to escape, use some sort of self defence, make an absolute racket.

By the time you are alone one to one with a dangerous person who means you harm, your options have just become very limited.

It would be wonderful if women were allowed to carry pepper spray and taser guns, but by the time you go for those, it may already be too late if you’re not trained.

We need more training for girls. Preferably from primary school age.

Some of the biggest signs would be offering you big trips or gifts very early on, declaring love very early on... these should strike you as curious, if the person doesn’t know the very well yet, what do they want?

Not all men are like this but too many are. You sound like you’ve been particularly unlucky to have come across so many of them. Perhaps some of them got the wrong idea and thought that crossing your threshold meant they were guaranteed and entitled to a shag, but I fail to see how that was your fault. As for the ones who were told ‘no’ and still kept trying, really out of order. No is such a useful word. Every adult should be able to use and understand it.

Freezing is a reflexive threat response controlled by the most primitive part of our brains.

It's not within our control whether or not freeze or flight or fight or dawn is activated in response to a threat.

Doesn't matter how many assertiveness courses you've done or how loud your rape alarm is. If your primitive brain deems your best chance of survival to be freezing, you're going to freeze whether you like it or not.

I have a friend who is a probation officer. She works in female offending. She says that the worst thing about the clie ts she deals with is that they do not realise they can make their own decisions about their own lives. That their boundaries are poor and they are almost passengers in their lives.

Yes. Being raised in an abusive home creates an adult who cannot identify where choices and options exist in front of them any more than someone with colour blindness can identify the coloured number in a blue/green dot chart.

It's not so much that they're making crap choices but that they cannot even see where the choices are to try and make them. Telling someone to exercise choice when they literally cannot see where the choices even are or understand the concept does not achieve anything (except maybe to frustrate and upset everyone).

Nobody asks me 12 times anymore because they know I'm serious; previously they could sense weakness so they kept pressing, they're like hyenas.

That's interesting. It astounds me that men do this - they clearly have no compunction.

Ugh, creeps.

I have been with the same man for 24 years so no idea of the dating scene now, I really hope my 2 sons don’t turn out like this

@Sgjudxbyef

Great points made, really important to take onboard.

Telling someone to exercise choice when they literally cannot see where the choices even are or understand the concept does not achieve anything (except maybe to frustrate and upset everyone).

What's the solution to this, then, for people who can't see the choices and have that primitive fear response due to past trauma that you refer to? How do we help those people?

There are also issues regarding having to balance boundaries with social and romantic needs. The smugsters who grew up in loving families and have loads of friends and married their wonderful DH when they were 26 have no idea what it's like to willing to compromise your own boundaries or even your own safety out of desperation and loneliness.

Fuck yes. (I don't have an abusive background, but several significant issues which I guess have affected how I relate to men.)

I've never intentionally led anyone on, but it should be possible to invite someone who you've been on four or five dates with back to yours for a glass of wine and a bit of a snog without them suddenly fast-forwarding several steps and suddenly appearing in their underpants expecting full-on sex.

And even if I'm quite happy to sleep with someone, should that mean I have no say in setting the pace?

I have been with my husband for 18 years now and he actually did this very early on in our relationship.

I was very, very angry at the time and in hindsight I really wish I had given him a bollocking.

We were both 21 at the time. Very early days, had been going out maybe around one month. We had been out in the City with a group of friends and I was going home. I don't remember but I'm guessing he asked to share taxi home (he lived in same direction.)

I suffer from very heavy, painful periods and what I do remember about that night was being in a lot of discomfort, wanting to get home, cleaned up, bath, then hot water bottle, painkillers and bed.

Once in the taxi he kept pestering me to come back to mine. I didn't really want to (or feel I should) go into the details of my painful period so I just said "no, not tonight, it's not happening." I thought that should have been enough.

It wasn't. He kept on and on at me. Big puppy dog pleading eyes and little boy face. I didn't feel in any physical danger from him at all (even if the taxi driver hadn't been there); I just felt completely frustrated and in awe that somebody was trying so hard to change my mind when I had said categorically "no".

There was no way I was letting him back and I think I was just kind of amazed that somebody would repeatedly try to manipulate me.

There was so way I was letting him back to mine, I said "no" and he just wouldn't let up. And thinking about it now I am still angry at how I didn't just tell him to fuck off, because the situation badly called for it.

I don't remember exactly what I said or how it ended up, but I suspect I was quite pleading about it ("please, not tonight but another time, ok?" which absolutely makes my skin crawl.

I think the taxi rolled off with him still making stupid puppy dog eyes out the back window.

I don't remember if I ever raised it with him. Apart from how angry I was (and still am), it was a huge turn off and I reckon if I was single now and that happened that would be a line drawn under that one.

Anyway, we got married 10 years ago, have kids etc. I can't remember him doing that shit again. I don't know why he did it that time.

I don't really know what my point is; I'm not denying that it's horrible and wrong (it's vile), I guess just that it's not cut and dried? I don't know actually, it's not an event I think about often. This has prompted me to maybe ask DH if he remembers it.

You sound quite boundaried now, OP. As if you've changed a lot from when the incidents you posted about took place.

@DdraigGoch

If he won't take "no" for an answer then the next step needs to be "you need to leave", followed by "get out". Again, don't be afraid to call the police.

That's almost exactly what I said with Man 2. He did leave, eventually, but I still can't get over the fact he had the fucking nerve to complain about getting the bus. I told him if he'd left when I asked he would have caught the tube.

Theoretical boundaries are good. Being able to implement them in the field can often be difficult if you're not used to the discomfort that brings