Pushy men who won't take "no" for an answer.

[LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour]

Inspired by another thread, but not a TAAT.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to get out of this, but I think it's to know whether IABU to still feel quite rankled about these experiences, all of which happened some time ago.

I'd also like to know whether this sort of thing is as common as it seems and whether (as I suspect is the case) I need to work on my boundaries.

1. Had been seeing someone for a while, purposefully not invited him to mine. He took it upon himself to travel to my local area at around 11pm, knowing I would feel obliged to invite him back. I made him sleep in the spare room, but he got into my bed the following morning.

2. Man was in my flat, quite early on (maybe third date). Went to bathroom and unexpectedly reappeared almost naked. Took me a lot of effort to get him to leave, and then he complained that he'd missed the last tube and had to get the night bus.

3. Man put a lot of pressure on me not to leave his house to go home. I then said I'd sleep in spare room, he wouldn't let me.

4. Man in my living room, having a bit of a snog. Asked to go to my bedroom. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

5. Having a meal with someone (first meeting, but not a date). He asked to come to my flat. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

These are all different men, and there are other experiences too. Am I just unlucky, am I a poor judge of character, or are all men like this?

@lazee

Just yuck. Why do women do this?

Do what?

The victim blaming on this thread is really unsettling.

Yes, op, I’ve encountered a lot of men like this. In fact the one who raped me had already been told no several times about other things and just pushed it every time, so by the point he raped me I didn’t even say no. Funny, but it’s only now I’ve typed that that it dawns on me how cynical and systematic he was.

I sacked a gardener recently because he was triggering that memory because he just couldn’t do anything I asked. Everything was “oh but,” and “what if,”. And he hacked down a bush I’d asked him to leave be.

In film and books that pushing of boundaries is called romance and seduction and it’s anything but.

There’s a line between victim blaming and taking back some control. I really recommend reading about Ursula Benstead’s concept of the Shark Cage if you’re concerned that you’re attracting a particular type of man or just want to work on boundaries.

Everything @PurpleCrocuses has said, you’re right, and put it much better than I could.

Shocked by the victim blaming, and the belief that all responsibility rests with women. And we should just put up with it because this is not an ideal world. No, just no.

This is a really good video released by Thames Valley police about consent. I think that your boundaries (apart from perhaps continuing with these guys 🤦🏻‍♀️) were there. You said ‘no’ that should have been enough. They understand perfectly, their enjoyment is just more important to them.

Consent & Tea

And we should just put up with it because this is not an ideal world. No, just no

Unless you can stop it NOW, we need ways to deal with it NOW.

That doesn't mean we don't need to change society.

I've been binge-watching Married at First Sight (Australia) and wonder whether those who've watched it noticed that when Tamara married Dan, she said the next day, "Dan was very persistent and I gave in." I was really shocked that the producer hadn't picked up on this. It's exactly the same thing that the OP is talking about here, but it was broadcast around the world as though it's a normal thing to happen.

It's this kind of behaviour that puts me off dating. I'd quite like a meal and a good conversation but the expectation of men and their inability to take no for an answer that puts me off. I know they're not all like that but I fear the ones on OLD are exactly that type sadly.
I'm happy being a mad old cat lady.

@Eckhart

And we should just put up with it because this is not an ideal world. No, just no

Unless you can stop it NOW, we need ways to deal with it NOW.

That doesn't mean we don't need to change society.

A cattle prod in a tote bag might do the job.

@HollowTalk

I've been binge-watching Married at First Sight (Australia) and wonder whether those who've watched it noticed that when Tamara married Dan, she said the next day, "Dan was very persistent and I gave in." I was really shocked that the producer hadn't picked up on this. It's exactly the same thing that the OP is talking about here, but it was broadcast around the world as though it's a normal thing to happen.

People need training about how to use language affectively. “Persistence” and “giving in” sound like a frightening experience. intimidation and fear for ones own safety might be better descriptors. Coercion and assault might be more accurate if we lived in a society where something is done about such things.

Young girls and women need training to use their voices powerfully, lest silence be read as consent.

@secretrugbyfan

Male here.....

The behaviour from all of the men in your examples is horrendous...I honestly don't understand where they learn to behave like this.

Is it a regional thing?
Is it a race thing?
Is it an age thing?

I was taught to respect women, and I have taught my two lads to do the same, and they get told in no uncertain terms if I find out they have said or done anything disrespectful towards a woman.

WTF is wrong with men these days????

OP, I'm sorry (on behalf of the decent ones out there) that men have made you feel like this.

Well this is the issue @secretrugbyfan. Obviously not all men behave in this manner but plenty too. It's not regional or racial. (Can't comment on age.)

As you can see from this thread women are constantly told what tey should and shouldn't do. How to behave. How to interact with others. That they need to accept how men behave and alter their behaviour accordingly.

Men need to start telling other men what isnt acceptable. But first they need to notice. Predatory behaviour is prevalen. I can guarantee that some of your male friends behave like this.

I ended up marrying someone who just kept on and on and on about us going out. He also kept on and on and on about various sexual practices and I gave in to keep the peace. Ditto sex in general.

At least we can all teach our kids some self-esteem and make sure they know we’re always there for them if they need us.

This used to happen to me all the time, not just with men but with everyone. I also said no. I also stated my boundaries but kept finding myself in situations I didn't want to be in or conversations I didn't want to have.

This came up for me in therapy and it was because I didn't stand firm and allowed myself to be bulldozed by others. It was all learned people pleasing techniques learned in childhood. Also for women, pushing back may escalate and we are always careful about trying not to escalate situations. Thirdly you want people to like you.

Men need to start telling other men what isnt acceptable. But first they need to notice.

^^
THIS. IN FUCKING SPADES.

Until ENOUGH men call out those who do behave this way, it DOESN'T MATTER that NAMALT. Because too many men still ARE lime this and will continue to be so until they are called out by OTHER MEN.

How fucking depressing is that?

Thirdly you want people to like you.

Fourthly, you don't want people to rape, and/or kill you.

@menwhopushboundaries

Same for me. It's a thing you learn. We should be taught it as kids but many of us are not, and are given poor examples by our parents. We can learn it as adults too, but I think many don't even realise there is something to be learned. I didn't go to counselling because I thought my boundaries were poor, I went because I kept getting hurt. I thought that having good boundaries meant that you decide what you want, and then you try to get people to do it.

It's such a simple lesson, the boundaries one, and so poorly understood by so many.

@Eckhart

I was worried he would follow me to my flat which was very close by

This is outright dangerous. You have put yourself in danger, lest a man you were scared off reject you.

What would a man have to do for you to reject him?

I think you may have conflated two of my scenarios. I did reject this man, completely. I wasn't in danger, but I didn't want to leave the restaurant until I was confident that he was heading towards public transport, in the opposite direction of my flat.

@CandyLeBonBon

Thirdly you want people to like you.

Fourthly, you don't want people to rape, and/or kill you.

I would have thought not wanting to be raped or murdered, went without saying.

I'm getting increasingly disillusioned with men, esp as I/they get older. X 4 is the number of partners of friends who tried it on with me leaving me. Used to leave me anxious and paranoid now just makes me angry. One in particular was someone who was aware how perturbed I'd been to get a random FB messenger of another friends partner as I discussed how horrible it was with him and his wife. He was all supportive and understanding at the time then engineered a situation to be alone with me to say things that really weren't ok. A lot of men and women unfortunately will think I was somehow teasing them or leading them on. Nope the blame for this unpleasant predatory behaviour lies squarely with them.

[quote Eckhart]@menwhopushboundaries

Same for me. It's a thing you learn. We should be taught it as kids but many of us are not, and are given poor examples by our parents. We can learn it as adults too, but I think many don't even realise there is something to be learned. I didn't go to counselling because I thought my boundaries were poor, I went because I kept getting hurt. I thought that having good boundaries meant that you decide what you want, and then you try to get people to do it.

It's such a simple lesson, the boundaries one, and so poorly understood by so many.[/quote]
I was about to say this as well. We often haven't been taught effective assertiveness skills and just freeze, often not knowing what to do. We've asked someone to leave, they haven't left, what do we do now???

It's all very well saying you should have called the police, you should have left, you should have done this or this but hindsight is 20/20. Often in the moment we are trying to de escalate the situation and manage it. We don't have the language to navigate it.

Sorry should just say tried it on with me. They didn't leave me, wasn't with them in the first place!

There are plenty of arseholes about. This is not the your fault, blame lies squarely with the arseholes. We don't live in an ideal world where the arseholes can be made to change their ways so all you can do is take measures to protect yourself.

You mentioned a couple of times that you have been reluctant to end things or afraid that you'll be "ditched" if you didn't let him in. Remember that it is better to be single than in a relationship with an arsehole. A man who would ditch you for not sleeping with him immediately is a man you are better off without. Never be afraid to not let someone in to your front door, you owe them nothing. If they've gone to a strange town on the off-chance that you'll let him in, that's their problem. Your home is your castle, don't invite the Trojans inside, no matter what wooden horse ("I'm stranded") they use as a pretext.

If you do find yourself in a position where you are intimidated, don't be afraid to call the police. Use the Silent Solution if you don't want to be overheard. Alternatively is there a trusted friend who could respond to a pre-agreed SMS codeword?

Well yes, @menwhopushboundaries me too. But apparently if we say no and that's not being acknowledged, and women are also still being told they didn't strong enough boundaries/should just show them the door/are just manifesting the wrong type, then I think it's valid to put it in black and white.

@Silenceisgolden20

If you are very clear in saying no, why did you let Man a in at 11pm uninvited?

He should have been dumped immediately.

There are men like this out there. It's pretty shit but weed them out fast.

With this particular man I didn't say no clearly enough, regrettably. I did want him to come back to mine and I did want to sleep with him (although not on that occasion).

I was never in any danger from him, but he did treat me very poorly and I should have dumped him way, way sooner than I did.

@CandyLeBonBon

Well yes, *@menwhopushboundaries* me too. But apparently if we say no and that's not being acknowledged, and women are also still being told they didn't strong enough boundaries/should just show them the door/are just manifesting the wrong type, then I think it's valid to put it in black and white.

Yes It's often quoted here: Men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them.

We are conditioned to be nice because it's a way of keeping things on an even keel. We chat away to the bloke we don't find attractive or interesting because if we say, "Sorry not interested." We risk verbal abuse or worse.

The amount of times I've been harassed, called names and I've been seriously stalked twice by people I've not been interested in, is ridiculous. There are very real consequences for women and it's easier, in the moment to just go along with something. Especially when you realise what a vulnerable position you've found yourself in.

@LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour
I'm really sorry you are having to defend the fact that you didn't say no 'properly'.

I am utterly shocked and frankly a bit triggered by so many of the apologist responses on here.

It can take years to Understand why your boundaries are weak, (for all sorts of reasons), and how to improve them. Please please do not be made to feel that you should have said it differently/better/Clearer.

If I was with a man and he was lukewarm about having sex with me, there is not a snowflake's chance in hell that I'd be pushing him to get them to change their minds. And nor should any man. Why would anyone suggest that it's somehow your fault for not saying no 'properly'?

Because that's what I'm reading on here and it's utterly disgusting.