Pushy men who won't take "no" for an answer.

[LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour]

Inspired by another thread, but not a TAAT.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to get out of this, but I think it's to know whether IABU to still feel quite rankled about these experiences, all of which happened some time ago.

I'd also like to know whether this sort of thing is as common as it seems and whether (as I suspect is the case) I need to work on my boundaries.

1. Had been seeing someone for a while, purposefully not invited him to mine. He took it upon himself to travel to my local area at around 11pm, knowing I would feel obliged to invite him back. I made him sleep in the spare room, but he got into my bed the following morning.

2. Man was in my flat, quite early on (maybe third date). Went to bathroom and unexpectedly reappeared almost naked. Took me a lot of effort to get him to leave, and then he complained that he'd missed the last tube and had to get the night bus.

3. Man put a lot of pressure on me not to leave his house to go home. I then said I'd sleep in spare room, he wouldn't let me.

4. Man in my living room, having a bit of a snog. Asked to go to my bedroom. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

5. Having a meal with someone (first meeting, but not a date). He asked to come to my flat. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

These are all different men, and there are other experiences too. Am I just unlucky, am I a poor judge of character, or are all men like this?

Then you don't invite them into your home, Purple. They have to be invited in, they didn't break down the door.

So women aren't allowed to have men inside their homes at all, unless they're willing to be be raped/coerced into sex/fear of rape/men refusing to take no for an answer? How very Saudi Arabia of you.

The OP already said she was frightened that one man would follow her home in order to learn her home address, keeping a potential stalker/predator from learning your home address is a pretty big deal. I've had men basically force their way inside my home before. It's laughable that you think men don't come inside "without an invitation".

Where do you draw the line - women aren't allowed to have male friends? Women aren't allowed to go outside without a chaperone?

We're only two pages in and already there are two or three posts suggesting that women should just always carry rape alarms or have 999 on speed dial whenever they interact with men. That is not a normal thing for women to have to do! Do you really not understand how extremely toxic and indicative of rape culture, that other women think the burden on not being raped should be entirely on women? That women need to be on red alert willing to dial 999 or physically fight someone off at all times, before we as a society admit that men who refuse to take no for an answer are 100% in the wrong and 100% to blame for rape culture?

How about you put responsibility for rape and other refusals to accept consent ON THE MEN and not on women for "asking for it" for doing perfectly normal things like going on dates and socialising.

@LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour

There are far too many men who think that access to A automatically entitles them to also access B...

So true. You wouldn't go round to someone's house for a cup of tea and start demanding that they provide a four-course meal with wine, would you?!

I agree well said

@gospelsinger

I think the media has a lot to answer for here too. Can you think of a modern film or series, where a man sleeps on the sofa? Or walks politely away from the door when she doesn't invite him in? Sex always seems to happen straight away. It grooms men into thinking they have every right to expect it and it grooms women to feel they should be ready before they are.

I don't think it's just the media. There are people, and a fair number of them, who date this way. They typically see dating as a long series of casual sex encounters.

There was a thread here a few weeks ago where someone said she didn't want to have sex yet with the fellow she had met online dating, and quite a few posters here, most of whom were women, pretty much told her that it was abnormal (not wrong, more like a little weird) to wait longer than the third date for sex, and so she should expect to have to have a mismatch with most of the people she met up with.

People's expectations about normal behaviour tends to drive what they do, and so people who are involved in that kind of dating expect others think the same way. They don't assume sex is on the table because they are jerks so much as because that is what their social experience of OLD is. And often people don't say "let' go back to my house for sex" what they say is "lets go back and have a drink/coffee/watch a film" but what's understood is that really, it's for sex. So if they get back and it turns out it's really just for a drink, that is kind of a surprise - they are speaking a different language.

The prevalence of that kind of dating scene means that people who don't want that end up having to be pretty clear about it up front, and realise the other person may have quite a different picture of what is going on in the interaction. Of course it's really best if everyone tries for clarity but the group that is in the minority will usually have to be more careful about it in practice.

@PurpleCrocuses

Then you don't invite them into your home, Purple. They have to be invited in, they didn't break down the door.

So women aren't allowed to have men inside their homes at all, unless they're willing to be be raped/coerced into sex/fear of rape/men refusing to take no for an answer? How very Saudi Arabia of you.

The OP already said she was frightened that one man would follow her home in order to learn her home address, keeping a potential stalker/predator from learning your home address is a pretty big deal. I've had men basically force their way inside my home before. It's laughable that you think men don't come inside "without an invitation".

Where do you draw the line - women aren't allowed to have male friends? Women aren't allowed to go outside without a chaperone?

We're only two pages in and already there are two or three posts suggesting that women should just always carry rape alarms or have 999 on speed dial whenever they interact with men. That is not a normal thing for women to have to do! Do you really not understand how extremely toxic and indicative of rape culture, that other women think the burden on not being raped should be entirely on women? That women need to be on red alert willing to dial 999 or physically fight someone off at all times, before we as a society admit that men who refuse to take no for an answer are 100% in the wrong and 100% to blame for rape culture?

How about you put responsibility for rape and other refusals to accept consent ON THE MEN and not on women for "asking for it" for doing perfectly normal things like going on dates and socialising.

Glad you have said this and put it really well too . It’s sad reading some of the responses on here as someone who has been raped

If you are very clear in saying no, why did you let Man a in at 11pm uninvited?

He should have been dumped immediately.

There are men like this out there. It's pretty shit but weed them out fast.

I realise my comment can be taken the wrong way. Sorry OP. I didn't mean you didn't say no, I meant ditch them immediately.

Some young women are lacking in the experience or maturity to be able to avoid or to handle situations like this as effectively as someone more assertive and worldly-wise. The OP has not 'got herself' into these situations on purpose.

I don't remember where anyone said anyone got themselves into that situation on purpose. Why would you think that was implied? Lots of people have said they had similar issues when younger.

The whole point of sharing their experience about how to draw better boundaries is to give the benefit of that experience to others.

There is something pretty weird going on when you have to let people figure out strategies on their own in case you get accused of victim blaming.

A lot of men are unfortunately like this. They will (consciously or not) deliberately push boundaries to see if they can get away with it or not. It's always a red flag.

Your boundaries aren't at fault - unless you keep seeing them after they have shown they have no regard for your boundaries. That has to be an instant red light end of relationship sign.

If you find yourself making excuses for them or wanting to give them another chance, then you may need to work on your personal boundaries!

Purple in all the scenarios she barely knew the guys!

Purple in all the scenarios she barely knew the guys!

So? Surely that makes their behaviour worse, not hers?

Why is no one blaming men for pushing or manipulating their way into a strange woman's house, potentially following her home, demanding sex from women they also "barely knew", and refusing to take no for an answer?

I had a middle-aged man I barely know push his way into my bedsit when I was 18 (and autistic, very naive, never even been on a date or been kissed), I simply didn't know how or have the words to tell him to leave. In hindsight it was 100% predatory of him to do that and he was exploiting my youth and naivety. Because men know exactly what they're doing and they know how to target women they think will be vulnerable. And mine was not in any kind of romantic context - imo it's actually worse and more complicated when it is in a romantic context.

Women should be allowed to date and snog and pursue romantic relationships without feeling pressured into sex before they're ready, or scared that men will stalk or rape them.

Crikey, I think you've had a lot of bad luck. Use the experiences to define clear boundaries going forward - don't worry about being seen as rude. If someone shows up at your place late at night and you don't want to let them, say no. If someone won't take no for an answer, say something like, thanks for a good evening, but I've got to go now. Then leave immediately. If you're not sure of someone, tell a friend where you're going and when you expect to be back. Text them to say you're leaving and you'll call them when you get home.

Be like the Queen - no apologies and no excuses!

This probably won't be a popular observation but there is a correlation between the 'type' you will encounter and the demographic you are trawling. The 'catches' tend to have been caught by their mid twenties, if you are trying to find a man of late 20s to 40s age who is actively dating then you're inevitably going to meet a lot of weirdos, pyschos, serial players and the terminally unattractive.

@purplecrocuses

I think your points are eloquently and passionately put. And I agree.

@purplecrocuses

Your points are passionately and eloquently made and I agree with them.

@PurpleCrocuses

Purple in all the scenarios she barely knew the guys!

So? Surely that makes their behaviour worse, not hers?

Why is no one blaming men for pushing or manipulating their way into a strange woman's house, potentially following her home, demanding sex from women they also "barely knew", and refusing to take no for an answer?

I had a middle-aged man I barely know push his way into my bedsit when I was 18 (and autistic, very naive, never even been on a date or been kissed), I simply didn't know how or have the words to tell him to leave. In hindsight it was 100% predatory of him to do that and he was exploiting my youth and naivety. Because men know exactly what they're doing and they know how to target women they think will be vulnerable. And mine was not in any kind of romantic context - imo it's actually worse and more complicated when it is in a romantic context.

Women should be allowed to date and snog and pursue romantic relationships without feeling pressured into sex before they're ready, or scared that men will stalk or rape them.

You are projecting, there is no particular reason to think these were instances of men targeting a vulnerable women. That may have been the case, but there are other possibilities.

What people are trying to point out is that if you are involved in a dating scene where people have sex early on - not uncommonly by the third date at the latest - is the norm, this is normally preceded by going to one or the other persons home. It's not explicit and that makes it difficult for those working on a different assumption, or who tend to take things literally. But for many people, including women on MN, there is an expectation that when you go to someone's home on a date it is because you are interested in having sex.

That does not mean those people are looking to assault you or pushing in. It also does not mean there are no men who assault women. It just means that there is very likely situations where there is a difference in expectations and what messages people think are being given.

It's possible to mitigate those kinds of differences in expectations. One way is by avoiding dating apps where a lot of people are looking mainly for casual sex. Another is by realising that an invitation/request to go to your home may be understood as being intended to lead to sex. So you don't do that, because it's potentially awkward. You can put that you are not interested in casual sex on your profile. Whatever.

That won't stop abusers or rape whole-scale (who said it did) but it will prevent certain quite common situations which can be distressing and embarrassing, and avoiding inviting strange men to your house does decrease your risk generally too.

Why is no one blaming men for pushing or manipulating their way into a strange woman's house, potentially following her home, demanding sex from women they also "barely knew", and refusing to take no for an answer

Nobody id saying that the men's behaviour is acceptable. It isn't. And it's not OP's fault, in any way. It is the fault of the men.

But should we be advising OP on what she ought to do in an ideal world, or in the actual world as it is, now; the world she lives in?

As I said above, none of us should have to enforce our boundaries, ever, because everybody should respect everybody else. But all of us must learn to enforce our boundaries, because everybody does not respect everybody else.

We need to change society, but there's no guarantees we'll get it done before OP needs to say 'no' to someone again. It could be a friend pushing for a favour, a family member pushing for money, a colleague pushing for her to do their work, or a man pushing her for sex. We all need to know how to enforce our boundaries, because the world is not as most of us wish it was.

Just yuck.
Why do women do this?

@NewUser123456789

This probably won't be a popular observation but there is a correlation between the 'type' you will encounter and the demographic you are trawling. The 'catches' tend to have been caught by their mid twenties, if you are trying to find a man of late 20s to 40s age who is actively dating then you're inevitably going to meet a lot of weirdos, pyschos, serial players and the terminally unattractive.

What a load of bullshit

Married men can be creeps too. Being atrached doesn't stop them raping ot attacking women

Not in my experience. I am a clear 'no'. ---- 'no you cannot stay over', you sleep in the spare room and not in mine or out - clear and no hint of wavering at all. My friend is a very passive person and had ended up with several things happen that she didn't want to happen and says she struggles to say no. Some men will take advantage and look out for women who struggle to say no/be firm etc since they are the ideal person to coerce - not the victim's fault at all but if all women learn assertiveness it may help keep safe.

Some will accuse of victim blaming but I say keep safe is better than being a potential victim. I was sexually assaulted when young and now I am very clear on what is ok and what is not and will speak up loud and clear.

@Eckhart

Why is no one blaming men for pushing or manipulating their way into a strange woman's house, potentially following her home, demanding sex from women they also "barely knew", and refusing to take no for an answer

Nobody id saying that the men's behaviour is acceptable. It isn't. And it's not OP's fault, in any way. It is the fault of the men.

But should we be advising OP on what she ought to do in an ideal world, or in the actual world as it is, now; the world she lives in?

As I said above, none of us should have to enforce our boundaries, ever, because everybody should respect everybody else. But all of us must learn to enforce our boundaries, because everybody does not respect everybody else.

We need to change society, but there's no guarantees we'll get it done before OP needs to say 'no' to someone again. It could be a friend pushing for a favour, a family member pushing for money, a colleague pushing for her to do their work, or a man pushing her for sex. We all need to know how to enforce our boundaries, because the world is not as most of us wish it was.

This - we should all encourage women to look out for themselves and not be coerced into allowing a man in if they don't want them in their home/bed/etc

This - we should all encourage women to look out for themselves and not be coerced into allowing a man in if they don't want them in their home/bed/etc

EVERYBODY, men, women, boys, girls, dogs, cats and neon tetra fish. We should ALL be taught how to recognise, respect, and if necessary, enforce our own boundaries. It's not just women against men. Everybody can get pushed around, and those with weak boundaries often don't even recognise that it's happening until it's too late. As with OP. The guys are in her intimate space or she is in theirs before she thinks 'Hang on a minute...'

Why the hell we're not teaching our kids about emotional boundaries and respecting our own feelings in school I don't know.

(actually, I think cats, dogs and fish already know what they're doing)

Yes I've encountered this, and I've encountered men who would never do this, and those who wouldn't dare cos I'm a bit fierce.

I knew one guy who seemed obsessed with anal sex and he would not stop asking and asking and asking. Nothing stopped him, not explaining I didn't want it, not getting annoyed with him. Evetually I told him I would do anal with him the day he let me do the same to him with a large dildo. That stopped him.

Really though I shouldve just told him to fuck off and not seen him again.

I think there's a massive amount of victim blaming in this thread. A real undertone of 'well if you put yourself in that situation what do you expect?' It's saddening to read.