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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Pushy men who won't take "no" for an answer.

175 replies

LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour · 01/03/2021 14:40

Inspired by another thread, but not a TAAT.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to get out of this, but I think it's to know whether IABU to still feel quite rankled about these experiences, all of which happened some time ago.

I'd also like to know whether this sort of thing is as common as it seems and whether (as I suspect is the case) I need to work on my boundaries.

  1. Had been seeing someone for a while, purposefully not invited him to mine. He took it upon himself to travel to my local area at around 11pm, knowing I would feel obliged to invite him back. I made him sleep in the spare room, but he got into my bed the following morning.

  2. Man was in my flat, quite early on (maybe third date). Went to bathroom and unexpectedly reappeared almost naked. Took me a lot of effort to get him to leave, and then he complained that he'd missed the last tube and had to get the night bus.

  3. Man put a lot of pressure on me not to leave his house to go home. I then said I'd sleep in spare room, he wouldn't let me.

  4. Man in my living room, having a bit of a snog. Asked to go to my bedroom. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

  5. Having a meal with someone (first meeting, but not a date). He asked to come to my flat. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

These are all different men, and there are other experiences too. Am I just unlucky, am I a poor judge of character, or are all men like this?

OP posts:
LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour · 01/03/2021 20:47

@Eckhart

You sound quite boundaried now, OP. As if you've changed a lot from when the incidents you posted about took place.
I think I've changed, although not sure how much. The underlying problem, I think, is that I am too grateful that someone wants to be physically intimate (there are reasons for this). I obviously don't express this explicitly, but there may well be something these men pick up on.
OP posts:
CandyLeBonBon · 01/03/2021 20:47

@Sgjudxbyef yes.

I was going to do an analogy about only being able to buy bread from a bakers and bring amazed when other people walked out with cakes and pastries but it got lost in translation!

WhereamI88 · 01/03/2021 21:16

I had a lot of this when I was younger. A combination of certain men being very entitled and me being young and desperate for company and therefore not making good choices in men. This got fixed once I matured and was more comfortable on my own so rejected men at the very first whiff of nasty controlling bullshit. I'm not saying it's your fault, it really isn't, but there are things you can do to avoid ending up in those situations. Don't go on holiday with someone you have doubts about. Don't invite someone over if you're not 100% comfortable with them. If a man intimidates you, dump him instantly. You don't owe anyone anything. And as cringe as it sounds, you need to learn to respect and like yourself first before trying to find a good healthy loving relationship.

Lunariagal · 01/03/2021 21:30

@sgjudxbyef

Absolutely spot on.

llamakoala · 01/03/2021 21:38

@PurpleCrocuses

The posters smugly saying "Just say no durrrr" really have no idea how often "just being firm" results in women being raped or assaulted, do they?

And there are all sorts of other factors which hugely influence a person's ability to "have good boundaries" and to be able to enforce those boundaries. Women who grew up in severely abusive homes simply don't know what healthy boundaries are and almost certainly have a degree of invisible and undiagnosed brain damage making things that privileged people take for granted almost impossible. If you've been taught from birth that you don't matter and have no rights and no bodily autonomy, learning that you are allowed consent takes a mountain of effort. Being autistic or having mental health problems or an LD also makes this much harder.

There are also issues regarding having to balance boundaries with social and romantic needs. The smugsters who grew up in loving families and have loads of friends and married their wonderful DH when they were 26 have no idea what it's like to willing to compromise your own boundaries or even your own safety out of desperation and loneliness.

And predators are VERY good at targeting vulnerable women.

Jesus fucking Christ, all these stories about men flatly refusing to take no for an answer, and you still think it's the woman who's to blame for not being forceful enough?

I suggest certain posters google ACE scores. My ACE score is 10. Most of what you suggest women "simply" do is almost impossible for me and for the millions of other women who are repeat victims. I don't know whether any of that is true for the OP and yes if the OP is worried then maybe therapy to help learn how to enforce boundaries might be helpful. But it's not her fault or responsibility that there are so many men out there who don't understand consent.

The idea that only neurotypical women from good loving families who have been given the social skills and nurture to be able to develop healthy boundaries and the ability to enforce those boundaries deserve to have their consent and bodily autonomy respected, that women who can't do this are somehow weak or "asking for it", is sheer victim-blaming and it's disgusting.

Women should not have to fight off physically more powerful men who refuse to take no for an answer.

Purple Crocuses, this, thank you so much for sharing your experience and for putting this into words. Your whole comment entirely.

To add to your comment I would like to share a personal story that I feel is relevant and hopefully will aid understanding of what it’s like to be in this position - it is really not as simple as “just say no” and it is possible to attract similar types of people who take advantage.

(Just to let people know this may be triggering although not graphic).

As a woman from an abusive home who is now understanding that as a child, my boundaries were repeatedly violated by someone who was in a position of power and trust, while on the other hand being told to “just say no!” (additionally, my ACE score, while not as severe as 10 is a significant 5) - in my early twenties and prior to counselling, I was coerced into a sex act that I had said no to moments before and for various reasons, including shame, humiliation and feeling powerless I allowed it to continue. It happened a couple more times and due to having these poor boundaries and feeling lonely and isolated, I continued to date this person (“man” #1), although I eventually broke things off.

A couple of women in my circle who I had tried to explain what happened were very critical of me - even going as far as to insinuating that I had made it up (that I had not consented), because they knew that occasionally I still saw/had contact with him following the break-up. I had recently endured personal trauma and was isolated from family and the only people I knew, I worked with.

Straight after I was in another bad relationship which was on/off. At first he seemed nice although ill-tempered and I reluctantly consented to the sexual act that I still didn’t really want to do. A few weeks later, “man”#2 broke up with me and I saw “man”#1 in the capacity of friend.

“man”#2 found out that I’d seen him and jumped to conclusions. He’d also spoken to the women in our circle who mentioned that I was spending time with “man”#1 despite the fact I’d told them that he had raped me (they used the “r” word - I did not). After work, “man”#2 was vile and insulted me and insinuated that I was a liar as I tried to explain how alone I was and that I had no-one else to turn to due to our break-up and that I’d simply spent time with “man”#1 in the capacity of “friend” and that when I’d actually been with “man” #1, I’d told him I didn’t want to do the sexual act that he was pressurising me for and that he’d continued and he didn’t take me seriously when I said no (etc).

After insulting me further (details which I will not go into so as to not derail from the main point but let’s just say he was vile and entitled and coercive himself) he (“man” #2) said that he didn’t want me to be alone and having to spend time with “man” #1, being that I had no one else, he said I should come home with him that night.

I didn’t want to go home with him, and we were still broken-up, but for reasons partly between my people-pleasing and poor boundaries (and possibly other reasons - feeling alone and wanting human contact, etc) I went back to his place. “man” #2” took me upstairs and instead of regular sex, proceeded to carry out the sexual act that we had been discussing just twenty minutes before 😠 that I had said I had declined with “man” #1 who carried it out anyway....

The entitlement of some of these “men”!

I don’t have any contact with the four individuals now, but it makes me very angry to think that the two women probably remember and still consider me to be a liar despite my unresolved issues and trauma and being with horrible “men” the latter of which who definitely knew how vulnerable I was and knew what I’d been through the year before, trauma-wise. And that these “men” are probably still just as vile and entitled.

My current long-term partner was horrified when I told him this story - I am very thankful for him!

Enough of the victim-blaming - surely it’s only enabling this crap behaviour from (some) “men”.

LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour · 01/03/2021 23:10

I'm getting increasingly disillusioned with men, esp as I/they get older.

All the men I've described have been between mid-thirties and late forties, and all "respectable" professionals.

OP posts:
CandyLeBonBon · 02/03/2021 00:23

Jesus fucking Christ, all these stories about men flatly refusing to take no for an answer, and you still think it's the woman who's to blame for not being forceful enough?

I agree.

I've actually really found this thread so difficult to read tonight. I've continued to do so because it's reminded me how far from equality we really are, but my god had it caused some emotional vomit.

PurpleCrocuses · 02/03/2021 01:48

llamakoala and all the other posters who have experienced sexual trauma, I am so incredibly sorry for what you've been through, and that the people in your life did not give you the support, empathy and understanding that you deserve.

Please know that you did absolutely nothing wrong, that you are not to blame regardless of how you reacted or didn't react either at the time or afterwards. And that there are people who DO listen, who DO understand, and who will applaud and take strength from your courage in sharing your stories. Trauma is a head fuck. Patriarchy is a headfuck.

All my love goes out to you. Flowers

PeggyHill · 02/03/2021 05:02

They definitely aren't all like this, but enough of them are that most women have the misfortune of encountering several of them.

They are subhuman.

IncorrigibleTitmouse · 02/03/2021 05:37

I hate thinking about all the things I did when I didn’t want to in my 20s because I just didn’t have the assertiveness to say no. It makes me want to cry.

Now at almost 40 I wish I could go back in time and tell 20 something me that it’s ok to stand up for yourself and not just acquiesce to someone else’s wants. Hindsight, eh?

miimblemomble · 02/03/2021 06:21

A pp up thread said she’d got into this situation when she agreed to meet a man at her dads place, for pizza and a movie and he’d clearly expected to have sex. She said her male friends told her that she was in the wrong because she’d given out «the signal» . What is this «signal» that men interpret as an indication that a woman wants to have sex with them? Is it simply agreeing to be (or just allowing yourself up) alone with a man in a private place?

Because this thread is full of what women think about these situations (and I agree with lots that has been said) and very little about what the men think, what «signal» they believe they are being given. Two people, in the same encounter, with totally different takes on it. I’d really like to know.

Do you talk to your DHs / DPs / sons about sexual assault and harassment ? What’s their take on it? And would they call out a friend if he was being a creep? It’s important because they are the ones doing it.

miimblemomble · 02/03/2021 06:34

My sister works in student conduct / counselling at a large university. She is sometimes quite overwhelmed by the cases of sexual assault and harassment that come across her desk, and so many of them are down to women AND men not realising or accepting that women are allowed to set boundaries on who has access to their bodies. Girls who have been brought up to be «nice» to not be «rude» by saying no, and boys who have been brought up with male privilege, being taught that it’s fine - positive in fact - to be a bit pushy, determined, not take no for an answer. And porn.

Fireandflames666 · 02/03/2021 06:44

I've had this happen a few times by who I considered good "friends". Me and my friends stayed at another well known friends house for the night, he sat next to me and tried to kiss me twice, after the second time he tried again and I ended up punching him in the face (I'm not proud of that but he left me alone after that).

Another time I was out with a friend group and one of the guys was bothering me all night and when my other friends went to the cash machine he kept asking to kiss me and then threw a strop and went home when i said no several times.

Third one I remember is my good male friend came over to see me as it had been a while. He asked to go to the bathroom but then called me up after five minutes to ask about something of the kids in the bathroom. I went up to see and he came out of the bathroom naked with an erection. He got told to get dressed and then told to leave.

peak2021 · 02/03/2021 07:10

Not all men are like this, but a combination of several things contributes to these behaviours being too common- porn, lack of education about consent, low conviction rates for rape and other sexual offences, and some role models for men. Films by Roman Polanski are still shown, for example.

ItisLikethis · 02/03/2021 07:13

"Asking repeatedly doesn't do any harm."

Actually it does. It causes distress.

Also making assumptions about people's intentions. For instance, some men will think that even a smile or engagement in small talk that that automatically signals that they stand a chance with you - romantically and or sexually.

"Asking repeatedly doesn't do any harm."

Actually it does. It causes distress.

Also making assumptions about people's intentions. For instance, some men will think that even a smile or engagement in small talk that that automatically signals that they stand a chance with you - romantically and or sexually.

ItisLikethis · 02/03/2021 07:15

Cut and paste twice 🙄

This thread has got me all riled up for the day.

PetalPath · 02/03/2021 09:43

@llamakoala
I’m sure you are aware of this, but just in case, please do not divulge any vulnerable experiences. Some abusers are actively looking for vulnerabilities to exploit, as you discovered. I’m so very sorry that happened to you, and so relieved and pleased to hear you are with someone understanding and caring who respects you.

Our personal experiences belong to us only, and someone needs to earn and deserve that trust before they hear it. I would say it’s a need to know basis. Best person to talk about this with is a specialised therapist or specialised groups for people who have had similar experiences. They can provide a far better quality of support.

LolaSmiles · 02/03/2021 09:49

ItisLikethis
You're right, and it doesn't help whe the sex pest approach is minimised.

I used to like the Big Bang Theory and then read something about how when you look objectively Howard was a sex pest and never changed, and Leonard managed to whine his way into a relationship with Penny. Both seemed to get into relationships by being the squeaky wheel and we're meant to find it funny. It changed how I viewed it after that.
Then there's the whole idea that women shouldn't be too keen, women shouldn'tmake the first move, women should sit and look pretty til a man approaches her, they should hint they might be interested and then a man who is interested should chase her, or that a man who is persistent is actually sweet because 'he must really likeyou' 🙄. It means that men are socialised to think that the most basic friendly encounter must be a woman up for sex but just needs persuading as she wants it really.

There's a whole barrel of toxic attitudes to sex and relationships running throughout social life.

CherryValanc · 02/03/2021 13:36

@PetalPath

For someone who is fully intent on forcing you, I’m sure a simple no will not stop them. You would have to escape, use some sort of self defence, make an absolute racket.

By the time you are alone one to one with a dangerous person who means you harm, your options have just become very limited.

It would be wonderful if women were allowed to carry pepper spray and taser guns, but by the time you go for those, it may already be too late if you’re not trained.

We need more training for girls. Preferably from primary school age.

Personally, I think we need more training for boys, preferably from primarily school age. They need to learn:

their wants aren't more important and don't override a girl's wants
What "no" means
About concent
How to read a room.

MissConductUS · 02/03/2021 13:49

The esteemed governor of New York forcibly kissed a woman he had never met before while holding her head in his hands, at a wedding. There's a photo of him doing it. He did it in front of dozens of witnesses.

It's f'ing unbelievable.

Andrew Cuomo accused of making unwanted advances at wedding

The only small consolation is that he's now a dead man walking politically.

MrMahoneysPants · 02/03/2021 13:51

NAMALT Just most of them IME

MissConductUS · 02/03/2021 13:53

It means that men are socialised to think that the most basic friendly encounter must be a woman up for sex but just needs persuading as she wants it really.

While I was tending bar while going to uni I lost count of the number of men, mostly much older than I was, who convinced themselves that I wanted to have sex with them because I was nice to them. It never occurred to them that it was my job to be nice to them.

MrMahoneysPants · 02/03/2021 13:54

@CherryValanc
Personally, I think we need more training for boys, preferably from primarily school age. They need to learn: their wants aren't more important and don't override a girl's wants What "no" means
About concent How to read a room.

There is a thread on here at the moment about mother who is upset that another mother told her child off. The 3 year old kissed her child and she said he shold not do it.

People pointing out that you can teach a child consent from day 1 were called loons. We live in a culture that tells boys they can have what they want, but we think we can ignore this and they will turn out to not be creeps. how?

MrMahoneysPants · 02/03/2021 13:56

@MissConductUS

It means that men are socialised to think that the most basic friendly encounter must be a woman up for sex but just needs persuading as she wants it really.

While I was tending bar while going to uni I lost count of the number of men, mostly much older than I was, who convinced themselves that I wanted to have sex with them because I was nice to them. It never occurred to them that it was my job to be nice to them.

I was a hostess in a family restaurant with a bar, I was told to walk around the room with a smile on my face. My resting bitch face was not acceptable, I should always look happy. So happy to meet any random that walked in.
BlaBlaSmthSmth · 02/03/2021 13:56

@Eckhart

WTF is wrong with men these days

Do you think it's new...? Confused
Do you think that only men cross people's boundaries...? Confused

Errr yes it is consistently men crossing women's sexual boundaries not the other way around. There are women who are pushy and don't take no for an answer, but it isn't the same and I don't understand why women are always coming to these threads desperate to say 'Women do this too you know' it's so fucking ignorant and dismissive