Pushy men who won't take "no" for an answer.

[LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour]

Inspired by another thread, but not a TAAT.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to get out of this, but I think it's to know whether IABU to still feel quite rankled about these experiences, all of which happened some time ago.

I'd also like to know whether this sort of thing is as common as it seems and whether (as I suspect is the case) I need to work on my boundaries.

1. Had been seeing someone for a while, purposefully not invited him to mine. He took it upon himself to travel to my local area at around 11pm, knowing I would feel obliged to invite him back. I made him sleep in the spare room, but he got into my bed the following morning.

2. Man was in my flat, quite early on (maybe third date). Went to bathroom and unexpectedly reappeared almost naked. Took me a lot of effort to get him to leave, and then he complained that he'd missed the last tube and had to get the night bus.

3. Man put a lot of pressure on me not to leave his house to go home. I then said I'd sleep in spare room, he wouldn't let me.

4. Man in my living room, having a bit of a snog. Asked to go to my bedroom. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

5. Having a meal with someone (first meeting, but not a date). He asked to come to my flat. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

These are all different men, and there are other experiences too. Am I just unlucky, am I a poor judge of character, or are all men like this?

I never want to experience that feeling of lack of agency again; it was quite horrendous

The thing is, unless you are being physically forced into something, the loss of agency is under your control, and nobody else's. Saying 'no' clearly doesn't mean just loudly saying 'no'. It should mean this, and it does, with people who respect you.

With people who don't respect you, it's a different story. For a start, do not get into this sort of situation with somebody until they have proven to you that they respect you. And if they don't hear your loud, clear 'no', you TELL them what the consequences are (ie you will not be in their presence any more; you leave, or you make them leave) or, you just go.

'I've said no, you didn't listen, so I'm going.' and you walk out.

I was worried he would follow me to my flat which was very close by

This is outright dangerous. You have put yourself in danger, lest a man you were scared off reject you.

What would a man have to do for you to reject him?

It is not your fault - some men are pushy entitled bastards.

Unfortunately, for many women (ike you), it's very difficult to say no and ultimately, these men therefore get away with it and carry on doing it. Again, I don't blame the women, but do accept that until more of us feel we can stand up and say NO, things won't change. which is so annoying and incredibly unfair.

I only really had this once and it was a very scary situation and in the end the only way I could get him to take me home (and he did need to take me home - there was NO other way for me to get home) was to promise him he could sleep at my house with me. I felt I had no choice. And for years I kicked myself because once I got home, I lived in a houseshare so if I'd made a fuss, I had people there to back me up. In my case, that situation, when I was in my late teens, was a call to arms and afterwards I felt much more comfortable with a flat NO.

A man subsequently called me a "cocktease" on one occasion because I wouldn't give him a blow job in a bathroom - we'd been snogging at a party so I do remember being quite surprised that he went from innocent public snogging to a blow job quite so quickly! - and while it upset and angered me, I'm really pleased to say it didn't make me change my mind. But I have wondered over the years whether if that had happened BEFORE the other incident, whether I would have felt more pressure?

When I was young I used to get myself in these awful situations too, where I didn’t want to appear rude so I stayed on dates with dickheads or naively went into their houses 'to watch a film' (I thought we were actually going to watch a film...)

I learned that a lot of men are arseholes who push and push if they sense you have weak boundaries. Now I cut them off bluntly at the first sign "no I don't want to go to your house", "no, you need to go home now". Nobody asks me 12 times anymore because they know I'm serious; previously they could sense weakness so they kept pressing, they're like hyenas.

I don't know the answer, I haven't dated for years because OLD is full of men like this and it turns me off.

So many men like this.

Had a school gate dad continually trying to invite himself to my place. Despite being told ‘no’ so many times. Had to practically tell him to fuck off before he took the hint.

It’s nothing to do with what signals you give off or boundaries you put up, men like that will always try it on. So unattractive.

See the minute I feel uncomfortable, pressured or threatened - I’m out.

There’s no way someone is getting to find out where I live by date number 3, let alone invited in.

They get one chance to hear my no and take it on board. If they try and insist they told “you seem like a man who can’t take no for an answer. That seems like a very bad sign for me. I’m afraid we aren’t compatible.” and I bail. It’s game over. Why wouldn’t it be?

Hmm. Well, there are people who are like this, but you do seem to have got yourself in a lot of situations where you were somewhere, or they were at your place, and you ended up feeling pressured.

It's not the case that all women, or maybe even most (it's hard to say), find themselves in such situations quite so regularly. So maybe there are things you could do to avoid these situations which would certainly be nicer from your perspective. There is probably not much you can do to stop weirdos and jerks from being weirdos and jerks, so avoiding them is really your best option.

This.

A lot of it comes down to socialisation. Girls and women are socialised to be facilitators, to be people pleasers, to be kind, to be nice, to be polite, to be gracious, to not be rude and to make sure we don't upset people lest they dislike us, and in particular to he careful about upsetting men in case they hurt us.

And there are men who know this and who will take full advantage of it.

Oh yes, and after horrible situations as a teenager with an adult stalker, I do not give a single fuck about a man seeing me as rude.

The book the “Gift of Fear” changed my outlook on creepy men and my own intuition.

Very contrary to my own upbringing, if I had a daughter she’d be told she had my full permission to tell any man who made her feel threatened or harassed to fuck off and she is under no obligation to be “nice to the creepy man”.

@FoxyTheFox

A lot of it comes down to socialisation. Girls and women are socialised to be facilitators, to be people pleasers, to be kind, to be nice, to be polite, to be gracious, to not be rude and to make sure we don't upset people lest they dislike us, and in particular to he careful about upsetting men in case they hurt us.

And there are men who know this and who will take full advantage of it.

Yes. I made my daughter read 'The Gift of Fear'. Should be required reading.

OMG, you have met some low-lifes. There does seem to be a story that it is knickers down at the third date. This is not a given, nor an obligation.

OLD does seem to push this and it should not. Getting to know a partner as a friend first, in the old fashioned way by socialising at a common interest (or from work) means you don't have to share addresses, invite home or do anything that you are not comfortable with. Obviously all this got wrecked by covid but I hope things will get better.

meantime safe spaces only. A decent man will accept 'sorry, too early to see you at home'. A man who pushes against that is telling you who he is.

When I was dating I was always very cautious about asking men back to mine. While there are some who understand that it really just is for a coffee and maybe a snog, some won't take no for an answer and it's not always easy to spot which is which.

As a case in point, the progressive Democratic governor of my own state of New York, known for his virtuous public persona, turns out to be a harasser and sex pest:

New York Times: Second former aide accuses Cuomo of sexual harassment

I think younger women sometimes have trouble being heard when they say no. Not that they are doing anything wrong at all, but that men simply tune it out. There are lots of weird ideas about there about consent - there was a really interesting BBC program about coercive control a few months ago and they split the groups watching it into male and female. Some of the stuff the men said was unbelievable. So there are still a lot of men walking around who feel entitled to sex.

I hear you op, and I think it's hard for people who have maybe never experienced this to understand how it happens.

This answer, for example:

Your response when they asked a second time, I've already clearly said no, are you unable to understand or accept the word no? If they ask again show them the door or leave the restaurant.

Sounds simple doesn't it? Except I was in a similar situation where I was clear about the fact that I'd said No. several times.

I ended up being raped.

It's really not hard to understand that yes, some men absolutely do not take no for an answer and it's easy to spout the line 'you need better boundaries' but that only works if men take notice of them.

I get your situation op. I've experienced similar.

@rawalpindithelabrador

Hmm. Well, there are people who are like this, but you do seem to have got yourself in a lot of situations where you were somewhere, or they were at your place, and you ended up feeling pressured.

It's not the case that all women, or maybe even most (it's hard to say), find themselves in such situations quite so regularly. So maybe there are things you could do to avoid these situations which would certainly be nicer from your perspective. There is probably not much you can do to stop weirdos and jerks from being weirdos and jerks, so avoiding them is really your best option.

This.

Spot of victim-blaming going on here I think.

Some young women are lacking in the experience or maturity to be able to avoid or to handle situations like this as effectively as someone more assertive and worldly-wise. The OP has not 'got herself' into these situations on purpose.

The posters smugly saying "Just say no durrrr" really have no idea how often "just being firm" results in women being raped or assaulted, do they?

And there are all sorts of other factors which hugely influence a person's ability to "have good boundaries" and to be able to enforce those boundaries. Women who grew up in severely abusive homes simply don't know what healthy boundaries are and almost certainly have a degree of invisible and undiagnosed brain damage making things that privileged people take for granted almost impossible. If you've been taught from birth that you don't matter and have no rights and no bodily autonomy, learning that you are allowed consent takes a mountain of effort. Being autistic or having mental health problems or an LD also makes this much harder.

There are also issues regarding having to balance boundaries with social and romantic needs. The smugsters who grew up in loving families and have loads of friends and married their wonderful DH when they were 26 have no idea what it's like to willing to compromise your own boundaries or even your own safety out of desperation and loneliness.

And predators are VERY good at targeting vulnerable women.

Jesus fucking Christ, all these stories about men flatly refusing to take no for an answer, and you still think it's the woman who's to blame for not being forceful enough?

I suggest certain posters google ACE scores. My ACE score is 10. Most of what you suggest women "simply" do is almost impossible for me and for the millions of other women who are repeat victims. I don't know whether any of that is true for the OP and yes if the OP is worried then maybe therapy to help learn how to enforce boundaries might be helpful. But it's not her fault or responsibility that there are so many men out there who don't understand consent.

The idea that only neurotypical women from good loving families who have been given the social skills and nurture to be able to develop healthy boundaries and the ability to enforce those boundaries deserve to have their consent and bodily autonomy respected, that women who can't do this are somehow weak or "asking for it", is sheer victim-blaming and it's disgusting.

Women should not have to fight off physically more powerful men who refuse to take no for an answer.

Spot of victim-blaming going on here I think.

I agreed with that quote, it's not mine. Don't think it's victim-blaming, either. This has been happening over and over to the OP. At some point, as adults, you do have to accept at least some degree of agency and responsibility over your own life.

Again, The Gift of Fear should be required reading.

Then you don't invite them into your home, Purple. They have to be invited in, they didn't break down the door.

How clearly and definitely are you saying no?

Your best bet is having a clear consistent rule about not having blokes back and not going to blokes houses for two months. Meet in neutral spaces until you’re ready to move on to the next step

I think the media has a lot to answer for here too. Can you think of a modern film or series, where a man sleeps on the sofa? Or walks politely away from the door when she doesn't invite him in? Sex always seems to happen straight away. It grooms men into thinking they have every right to expect it and it grooms women to feel they should be ready before they are.

@Porridgeoat

Your best bet is having a clear consistent rule about not having blokes back and not going to blokes houses for two months. Meet in neutral spaces until you’re ready to move on to the next step

This is what I did when I was dating in my 30s. No exceptions.

Male here.....

The behaviour from all of the men in your examples is horrendous...I honestly don't understand where they learn to behave like this.

Is it a regional thing?
Is it a race thing?
Is it an age thing?

I was taught to respect women, and I have taught my two lads to do the same, and they get told in no uncertain terms if I find out they have said or done anything disrespectful towards a woman.

WTF is wrong with men these days????

OP, I'm sorry (on behalf of the decent ones out there) that men have made you feel like this.

There's a difference between being to blame and being responsible.

It's not OP's fault that other people aren't respectful of boundaries.

OP is still responsible for learning to maintain her boundaries.

None of us should have to; all of us must.

WTF is wrong with men these days

Do you think it's new...?
Do you think that only men cross people's boundaries...?