Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

I don't get the trans debate but now I need too

214 replies

Ayedresses · 19/06/2019 08:19

I work for a government young organisation. It's a youth organisation that involves/revolves around residential trips. The young people are 16.

Beforehand if a young person was trans, for sleeping arrangements we would call up their friends who they wanted to share accommodation and ask if the parents were happy for their young person to share with (politically correct) person who may not associate with their biological gender.

Now things have changed. Now we must not ask a Young person for their gender and the young person can freely choose where they feel most comfortable to sleep/shower/toilet.

We very much state that these things are single gender as the young people are 16 and we wanted to assure parents that their young people are safe and not going to go home pregnant. While the same rules will apply 'boys tents over there.... Girls tents around there...' if you're trans you get to pick what camp and we're not allowed to tell their room mates nor does the YP have to tell their room mates.

At present we seem to have a fair few young people who are female to male if that makes a difference.

I'm not particularly happy with this, and I think it's a safeguarding risk and a huge headache.

OP posts:
Jammydodger1981 · 19/06/2019 08:21

Is this NCS?

StealthPolarBear · 19/06/2019 08:24

It is. Who is Head of safeguarding?

TeenTimesTwo · 19/06/2019 08:24

Of course it's a safeguarding risk.
Plus an issue of privacy and dignity.

Go over onto the feminist board and they can signpost you at places with resources.

Surely at least what you must make it clear to all parents that tents and showers are no longer sex segregated.

It is atrocious that the rights of the trans children are being put over and above the rights of all the other children to sex segregated spaces.

TeenTimesTwo · 19/06/2019 08:27

If this is NCS then it is particularly worrying, as the children and parents won't know many of the others taking part, so they can't even make an informed choice.
(ie They can't say oh Tim who used to be Tina, well I've known them since they were 5 … or Ivana who used to Ivan)

SnuggyBuggy · 19/06/2019 08:27

I know this issue has kicked off with Girlguides. I'm guessing the issues here are pretty similar

TeenTimesTwo · 19/06/2019 08:29

Many parents will not realise that 'single gender' means 'mixed sex'.

This will all come tumbling down one day when a young person is sexually assaulted or comes back pregnant from one of these 'single gender' situations... It is just a matter of time.

TheAngryLlama · 19/06/2019 08:30

That is just appalling, I’m sorry. I have no advice but I hope you can resolve this sensibly. You shouldn’t be placed in such a difficult position.

IceRebel · 19/06/2019 08:30

It is atrocious that the rights of the trans children are being put over and above the rights of all the other children to sex segregated spaces.

This!!

Surely at the very least such events can't claim to be single sex events. Those who attend should know there is a chance of a trans person attending the event / sharing accommodation. Or are they worried that this would quite rightly put people off attending.

CassianAndor · 19/06/2019 08:30

It is indeed a safeguarding risk - safeguarding seems to fly out of the window as soon as 'trans' is mentioned, because trans can't be subject to the same scrutiny as any other member of society.

I think you need to stress that sleeping arrangements are now single gender not single sex (use both phrases so that parents pick up the difference). And hope that your organization has deep enough pockets for the lawsuits to come.

People on FWR should be able to help further.

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 19/06/2019 08:32

I think there's going to be a lot more problems along these lines as things progress. No I don't think that females who are identifying as males should be sharing tents with teenage boys. I think that's a safeguarding risk. Parents should be advised in all these situations so that they can give informed consent.

WhoopDeFuckingDo · 19/06/2019 08:38

Is there an AIBU here? Are you looking for guidance on how to address your concerns?

Obviously you’re paraphrasing re “now we must not ....” and so on, so your first step would be to look properly at the policy of the organisation, which is going to give you much more nuanced and detailed information.

If you think after reading and discussing with managers that their policy is flawed then take it up with the organisation through their usual processes.

If you’re heading into the feminist board here, do be aware that you’re not likely to find much posting or information in there that represents non gender-critical opinion or sources.

Original poster
Ayedresses · 19/06/2019 08:42

There's no official process - what we've received from the head office is 'all young people should be included and no young person should be excluded due to religion/gender/etc etc etc'.

I believe this new policy has been placed locally. I somewhat need a case to raise it as a safeguarding concern but not come across as anti LGBT+.

OP posts:
WhoopDeFuckingDo · 19/06/2019 08:42

IceRebel Or are they worried that this would quite rightly put people off attending.

That is just not on. Crossing out your abhorrent views doesn’t make them invisible.

Babdoc · 19/06/2019 08:47

Unless your young trans people have a gender recognition certificate, they are not entitled to enter the opposite sex showers, tents, toilets etc. The equality act allows single SEX spaces, not gender. Sex is a protected characteristic under the law, “gender identity” is not - unless they have a certificate permitting them the legal fiction. So you can legitimately exclude them where safeguarding is an issue.
I think you should ask your organisation to look at the legal position.

IceRebel · 19/06/2019 08:48

Crossing out your abhorrent views doesn’t make them invisible.

Abhorrent? Strong choice of word there. I think it's unacceptable that people can be misled into thinking they will be staying in single sex accommodation. If they were in possession of all the facts it may put them off from attending.

WhoopDeFuckingDo · 19/06/2019 08:50

Ayedresses, how about going back to head office then with some scenarios and asking them for more specific guidance, in writing.

It’s not really enough if it’s as vague as you’re saying, so it would not be unreasonable to ask for clarification and more detailed guidance.

See what they come back with, then take it from there. If you do feel there are safeguarding issues still then bounce it back again. You need to feel supported in your role, and it’s nit ok for them to dodge the tricky stuff by leaving it too open and vague.

Do be cautious of sources if you take information back to them. There is a lot of anti trans rhetoric, propaganda, misinformation and scaremongering about.

BigGreenOlives · 19/06/2019 08:50

You can’t have a gender recognition certificate till you are 18.

sackrifice · 19/06/2019 08:51

Ask for the risk assessments on mixed sex sleeping and changing arrangements.

WhoopDeFuckingDo · 19/06/2019 08:56

Ice, your post says “a chance of a trans person attending the event” and goes on to say that may “quite rightly” put people off attending.

Maybe you didn’t mean it the way it reads.

LizzieSiddal · 19/06/2019 08:57

I agree with others, ask to see the risk assessment on the mixed sex sleeping arrangements.

Also be aware that if they start saying “we have to do it, it’s the law”, this is not correct. It is only correct if someone has a GRC, which you can only get when you are 18.
The Equalities Act allows any organisation to provide separate facilities according to their sex. Gender is not mentioned as a protected characteristic in the Equalities Act.

Sex is protected.

C8H10N4O2 · 19/06/2019 09:00

This has a lot of basics and references which you can then fact check for yourself.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

IceRebel · 19/06/2019 09:00

The OP infers that attending the event and sharing accommodation are synonymous. I didn't intend for my comment to read as though other attendees would be put off by the presence off a trans person, and i'm sorry if you read it that way.

CassianAndor · 19/06/2019 09:00

Sex is also defined in law, isn't it? Being of the female class or something like that - will dig it out.

Whoop I took what Ice to mean that you would rightly be put off attending an event with such poor regard to safeguarding.

sackrifice · 19/06/2019 09:01

Or are they worried that this would quite rightly put people off attending

It is boys in with girls that is the issue. Not that there is a trans person attending.

RiddleyW · 19/06/2019 09:04

Beforehand if a young person was trans, for sleeping arrangements we would call up their friends who they wanted to share accommodation and ask if the parents were happy for their young person to share with (politically correct) person who may not associate with their biological gender.

I’m not really sure why you think this was better - the safe guarding risk is the same regardless of whether the parents agree to the sharing surely? How often did this happen?

When you say things have changed, what form has this taken? Who has told you you can’t enforce single sex accommodation?