I don't get the trans debate but now I need too

[Ayedresses]

I work for a government young organisation. It's a youth organisation that involves/revolves around residential trips. The young people are 16.

Beforehand if a young person was trans, for sleeping arrangements we would call up their friends who they wanted to share accommodation and ask if the parents were happy for their young person to share with (politically correct) person who may not associate with their biological gender.

Now things have changed. Now we must not ask a Young person for their gender and the young person can freely choose where they feel most comfortable to sleep/shower/toilet.

We very much state that these things are single gender as the young people are 16 and we wanted to assure parents that their young people are safe and not going to go home pregnant. While the same rules will apply 'boys tents over there.... Girls tents around there...' if you're trans you get to pick what camp and we're not allowed to tell their room mates nor does the YP have to tell their room mates.

At present we seem to have a fair few young people who are female to male if that makes a difference.

I'm not particularly happy with this, and I think it's a safeguarding risk and a huge headache.

Yes Cassian I agree, boys are self-conscious and deserving of dignity too.

Nettle

Yes you are right,I seem to have had more than one brain fart this morning.

I absolutely read IceRebel's post as being a concern with the sharing accommodation- seeing as she wrote "attending/sharing accommodation" in her point! For Whoop to strip the sharing bit out and just say it was about a trans person attending and therefore abhorrent is extremely disingenuous. And to ignore the context and clarification. It is possible to read something wrongly when you are assuming the worst... doesn't mean your interpretation is correct.

boys are self-conscious and deserving of dignity too

YY
All young people need single sex intimate spaces for safety, dignity & privacy.

Adults & organisation who have Duty of Care are absolutely failing if they do not ensure this.

People need to start getting a grip of their responsibilities.
Its not kind or progressive to throw out Safeguarding frameworks.

Barbara Most of the general population would not realise that this is not necessarily the same as 'same sex'.

Most parents wouldn't think something so ludicrous as mixed-sex teenage dorms would happen in the first place, hence it wouldn't enter their minds.

And we need to consider exactly who benefits and thus who would push for these safeguarding frameworks to be removed. I'm going to say it - it's paedophiles, who must be rubbing their hands with glee.

Most of the general population would not realise that this is not necessarily the same as 'same sex'.

Exactly, many people in the UK use gender as a euphemism for sex.

It is then being confused with 'gender identity' (an ideological & disputed descriptor) with others.

Adults & organisations with a Duty of Care for children & young people need to make terms clear in both their minds and policies.

There is a risk they will mislead both young people & their parents/carers otherwise which would represent a failure in Duty of Care & Safeguarding.

Most of the general population would not realise that this is not necessarily the same as 'same sex'.

I'm sure you're right. Most parents wouldn't dream any organisation taking 16 year olds on residential trips would have mixed sex sleeping accommodation. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

OP, if it's not spelled out and it comes out later you or your organisation could be very exposed.

Was hoping you'd turn up, R0wantrees.

Not trying to be goady at all here just genuinely interested, what exactly are your fears for what might happen if someone who was trans were assigned to a bedroom of the gender they associate with?

For 16 year olds, sexual experimentation, any consent issues surrounding that, including but not limited to the possibility of assault, teen pregnancy or STDs etc.

Mixed sex sleeping arrangements are a safeguarding issue and as the organisation is in loco parentis they need to be clear on the issues themselves and clear with the parents.

I think what you need to know in a nutshell is this OP.

• The service you provide must comply with the law including the Equality Act 2010.

• Your trans users will not legally be the sex/gender (terms used interchangeably in legislation unfortunately!!) that they identify as. They will retain their original birth sex as you have to be 18+ to get a gender recognition certificate under the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

• They will however have the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment" under the Equality Act 2010. This is because they are undergoing or proposing to undergo gender reassignment.

• people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment must not, in accordance with the Equality Act, be subject to discrimination.

• Direct discrimination is never allowed (eg "We're not letting any trans people use are service because we don't like them").

• Indirect discrimination is when you do something that basically impacts more negatively on people with a protected characteristic. People may argue that it indirect discrimination to segregate accommodation according to their legal sex as this will put trans people off. However,

A) In all cases, indirect discrimination is legal as long as it is justified as a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" (ie not over the top and for proper reason such as safeguarding). B) Specifically in your case, there is a specific exception in the Equality Act for communal accommodation (Schedule 23, para 15) that you may be able to rely on. If that exception applies then it's not capable of being discrimination.

I agree with others, someone needs to be making sure that safeguarding and risk assessments are done. I can see why you can't keep using the old system as, unless the trans person has given informed consent, you can't go around revealing to everyone that they are trans.

I don't know if you have any spare small rooms where the trans users could have their own private accommodation? You would need to avoid revealing to the other users that the trans person had got a private room because they are trans of course (perhaps they might want you to say that they have difficulties sleeping or some similar excuse?). A third, private space is usually the solution if it's feasible in these types of delicate situations (eg IIRC the EHRC recommend letting trans students change for PE in the private staff bathrooms rather than putting them in the communal areas). This may be not what the trans users want as they are missing out on the communal experience, but you have got to consider safeguarding and protecting the rights of your other users.

Moreover, people frequently believe that once someone asserts that they are trans, they have to be legally treated as the opposite sex. This is just not correct. They have to obtain a gender recognition certificate and go through the process that is necessary to obtain one. Until this happens, they are legally their original sex. They are, for instance in the case of a FtM trans person, legally a woman who may have strong reasons for not wanting to share accommodation with other women (as they are in the process of legally becoming male), but they are nevertheless legally female rather than male - see R (Green) v SoSJ, para 68 www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2013/3491.html (a very different context but the same principle applies).

hoping that someone will help me draft an email.

See my post above on the law and PM me if you like @Ayedresses

people frequently believe that once someone asserts that they are trans, they have to be legally treated as the opposite sex. This is just not correct.

Also, identity does not override safety or safeguarding. The organisation can be sued and the injured party will win. Contact the insurance company and tell them you need urgent advice.

it's back a bit but

He wants to use male toilets as he's worried he'll get challenged if he goes into the female toilets and he also experiences a certain amount of cognitive dissonance of not belonging in female toilets

you're proposing to send a 12 year old female child alone into men's public toilets? I'm not ecstatic about my sons using them. My daughters certainly wouldn't be.

children who identify as trans deserve safeguarding just as much as every other child, and that starts with knowing what sex they are for heavens sake

Not trying to be goady at all here just genuinely interested, what exactly are your fears for what might happen if someone who was trans were assigned to a bedroom of the gender they associate with?

Thats a disingenuous way to frame a comment. Safeguarding is about managing risk, and prevention. Not 'fears'.

Thats why the NSPCC insist that children should have single sex bedrooms within their own family, and the law insists that childrens toilets and changing rooms in schools are single sex.

And yes, my son would be mortified if he were to be expected to change for PE or shower in the same room as a female.

And I would be incandescent if I found that he had shared sleeping accommodation with a girl without my knowledge (once he’s 18 I may relax this policy )

Transgender Trend's Safeguarding guidance for schools will have information, legal & policy guidance applicable to youth organisations.

I strongly recommend that adults who assume Duty of Care & Safeguarding responsibilities for children & Young People on residential trips especially read and take the contents very seriously.

www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Safeguarding_Concerns_web.pdf

This document assessing guidance promoted by translobby groups (Allsorts, Mermaids etc) is also important reading :
www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/CRIA-Toolkitweb2.pdf

website: www.transgendertrend.com/

Policies which have replaced sex-based protections with self-id gender affirmative policies need to have completed impact studies.

If an organisation has not done this they are not operating within Safeguarding frameworks.

I don't know if you have any spare small rooms where the trans users could have their own private accommodation? You would need to avoid revealing to the other users that the trans person had got a private room because they are trans of course (perhaps they might want you to say that they have difficulties sleeping or some similar excuse?). A third, private space is usually the solution if it's feasible in these types of delicate situations

This is not an uncommon situation.

On residentials there may be children who require seperate sleeping arrangements for a number of reasons. Staff & responsible adults should be familiar how to ensure the child is protected from speculation, teasing or bullying.

The child should also be involved in the decision making.

If organisations can't manage this then frankly I would question their capability to assume Duty of Care.

(a relatively common example may be a teenager who has night-time incontinence. Schools & youth organisations running residentials will often be required & should be very able to manage this sensitively. the solution will always be centred on the specific needs of the individual child)

children who identify as trans deserve safeguarding just as much as every other child, and that starts with knowing what sex they are for heavens sake

Hear hear! And it is up to the adults around them, not to tell them lies, that they can become another sex. It is also up to the adults to not put them in a position they would not be put in if they were not a trans teenager. So putting a ftm child into a dorm of teenage boys, is not a good idea.

My (teenage) child told me that the transboy in her year uses the staff loos and was being accommodated separately on the school trip, 'So you can stop worrying, mum, because he's really like reasonable about it and he'll be fine?'

So, she understands why that particular female child is not OK being accommodated with those of the same 'gender ID' but opposite sex.

I wonder why she thinks that she herself, and other ordinary boring female children, should be ignored if they are not OK with being lumped in with kids of the same gender ID but opposite sex.

My (teenage) child told me that the transboy in her year uses the staff loos and was being accommodated separately on the school trip, 'So you can stop worrying, mum, because he's really like reasonable about it and he'll be fine?'

This puts all male staff at risk if the child is in the male staff toilets.

Unbelievable.

Staff toilets usually are unisex though.

I think the fact that it's government sponsored should be useful
You could be asking how, if residential provision will be mixed sex, they hope to encourage people from many minority groups to attend
(Muslims, Jews, many Christians, Travellers)

Staff toilets usually are unisex though.

And?