I don't get the trans debate but now I need too

[Ayedresses]

I work for a government young organisation. It's a youth organisation that involves/revolves around residential trips. The young people are 16.

Beforehand if a young person was trans, for sleeping arrangements we would call up their friends who they wanted to share accommodation and ask if the parents were happy for their young person to share with (politically correct) person who may not associate with their biological gender.

Now things have changed. Now we must not ask a Young person for their gender and the young person can freely choose where they feel most comfortable to sleep/shower/toilet.

We very much state that these things are single gender as the young people are 16 and we wanted to assure parents that their young people are safe and not going to go home pregnant. While the same rules will apply 'boys tents over there.... Girls tents around there...' if you're trans you get to pick what camp and we're not allowed to tell their room mates nor does the YP have to tell their room mates.

At present we seem to have a fair few young people who are female to male if that makes a difference.

I'm not particularly happy with this, and I think it's a safeguarding risk and a huge headache.

Also remember to challenge the safeguarding risks both ways round - transboys (bio girls) are as much of a safeguarding risk sleeping/changing with boys as trans girls (bio boys) are in with the girls....16 year old people with penises sharing with people with vaginas is very likely to lead to sex which is still a safeguarding risk even if consensual.

Plus there’s issues of privacy but those seem to be shouted down as bigotry...

Sex is also defined in law, isn't it?

No. The law uses sex and gender interchangeable, because they used to mean the same thing. The law does not acknowledge the recent idea of having 'a gender' which can change on a whim.

This is where a lot of the confusion arises.

I think you should advertise the single gender can mean mixed sex.

Oh they don’t want to advertise that.... I wonder why...

Is this Guides or Scouts?

OK in a nutshell, the equality act enshrines equality legislation for various groupsofpeople.These 'protected characteristics' include both 'sex'and 'gender identitiy'. TRAs want there to just be 'single gender' even if you only identify as a different gender to sex on a Thursday morning when there is a full moon.

So legally you can and should have single sex spaces but trans activists will deny this..

The information given sounds like it is from Stonewall's advice which is crap.

Please come over to the Femnism boards, there are people who have been in exactly your situation and can tell you how they have dealt with it.

There are some gifted letter writers over there and we are not the vipers sometimes portrayed.

As pp says:

1. Children under 18 cannot have a gender recognition certificate, therefore they cannot fall under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
2. You need to start using the terms mixed sex to make the situation crystal clear. Because that is exactly what it is Don't fudge round double negatives or coy phrasing - the parents need to be able to understand at a glance/in plain english that their child may be sleeping, bathing and dressing around members of the other sex.

Issue that as general guidance and not related to any one trip in particular.

And yes, do head over to FWR for clarity and straight thinking. This whole movement is designed to conceal and befuddle boundaries.

16 year old people with penises sharing with people with vaginas is very likely to lead to sex which is still a safeguarding risk even if consensual

Which would be my concern

How does this work when religion is also a protected characteristic? Some religions wouldn’t stay in mixed sex accommodation.

I believe this new policy has been placed locally. I somewhat need a case to raise it as a safeguarding concern but not come across as anti LGBT+.

1. Put it in writing.
2. Refer only to single sex accomodation- just don't take on the gender stuff.
3. Put in a couple of caveats in about wanting the trans children to be supported and comfortable (which obviously you do).
4. You are completely supported by the equality act. Read up on the examples of when single sex services are lawful. You might wish to link to some relevant guidance in your letter.
5. Keep it factual- about risk and safeguarding.
6. Be brief and clear.

You need to start using the terms mixed sex to make the situation crystal clear. Because that is exactly what it is Don't fudge round double negatives or coy phrasing - the parents need to be able to understand at a glance/in plain english that their child may be sleeping, bathing and dressing around members of the other sex

^^ This. The use of 'biological gender' illustrates that the OP is one of the many who still sees sex and gender as synonyms, when in situations such as those described, this isn't necessarily the case.

As well as trampling over the rights of women to safe spaces, there is a risk of discrimination against certain religious groups where separation by sex is often a requirement.

Yep in really struggling to see the abhorrent views. I'd be put off sending my children

That is just not on. Crossing out your abhorrent views doesn’t make them invisible.

Whoop I took what Ice to mean that you would rightly be put off attending an event with such poor regard to safeguarding.

I think most people would read it that way. Jumping to calling someone abhorrent is a bit harsh.

sashh gender identity is NOT a protected characteristic - its gender reassignment thats protected, and EVEN THEN sex can trump it if it meant that people for whom the service is designed may not attend if the service/occupation would be mixed sex.

there has been a lot of sneaky slipping in 'gender' instead of sex, and 'gender identity' instead of 'gender reassignement' in much government / council equality documents. Which means that organisations are following a very different route than that which is written in law. This needs challenging wherever its seen as has huge implications in regards safeguarding of young people.

I believe the scouts have just changed their trans policy back to what it was previously. Single SEX. That may be a place to start. The scouts being possibly far more aware of safeguarding requirements after some pretty shocking issues in the past

I see abhorrent views in trying to pull the wool over parents eyes in order to validate a childish (literally) belief. I see abhorrent views from people trying to denigrate and shut down other people that want to put sunlight on this. I see abhorrent views in that girls will again be the ones (mostly) negatively affected.

I think you have to make it clear to the parents and the young people that the accommodation is mixed sex. This would put me off of allowing my daughter from attending- which is awful.

I think as mothers we need to be more vocal about protecting our daughter’s sex based rights, which our generation took for granted. Young women and girls carry the highest risk of being harassed in terms of the female population, and as you get older and are less likely to be cat called and groped, we forget how vulnerable we were and how important single sex spaces were.

It is boys in with girls that is the issue. Not that there is a trans person attending.

This a thousand times.

Trans teenagers are as entitled as anyone else to attend. However they do not have the right to share sleeping/ washing/ facilities with the opposite sex. That is against all safeguarding law and advice.

A barrister (radfemlawyer on twitter) spoke at awp and said it is lawful to have female only spaces. They are able to advise organisations.

Firstly, you need to be really clear in your mind and your language about the difference between sex and gender.

Are your tents single sex, or single gender?

You say There's no official process - what we've received from the head office is 'all young people should be included and no young person should be excluded due to religion/gender/etc etc etc'.

Firstly ask HO exactly what they mean by gender, by sex and how their desire not to exclude relates to legislation about protected characteristics. What evidence is required to demonstrate any of those characteristics? At what age do they become relevant legally and in terms of their policy?

Then pose a few hypotheticals e.g. if you have a muslim girl who may not undress in front of people of the opposite sex (not gender, sex), how do you meet her needs? What assurances can you offer her parents? How do you ensure she is not excluded, or prevented from even considering attending your camp?

It needs to be made clear to parents and children that when entrusted into the care of your organisation they will potentially be sleeping, washing and using toilets in a mixed sex environment.

To lie about this by blurring the truth leaves you open to lawsuits and worse still the potential for a child to be harmed (and I mean harmed in the broadest sense, even consensual PIV sex would be interpreted as putting a child at risk in a supposedly single sex environment).

You are right that this is a massive safeguarding issue and one than many women here have tried to raise over and over with organisations who are more interested in appearances than actually protecting children.

I wonder how many trans kids you have in your care when you go away.

Point of interest though -

My 12 year old child came out as FtM trans over Easter. I'm supporting him, though not going for medical intervention at this point - I want to watch and wait as he's grappling with a variety of other issues that may have informed his decision.

If he goes on camp being a male identifying child but still sleeps in a female tent (as he would probably want to do as most as his friends are female) would parents of girls he was sharing a tent with not want him in with them now?

Similarly, he now doesn't know what toilets to use now. He wants to use male toilets as he's worried he'll get challenged if he goes into the female toilets and he also experiences a certain amount of cognitive dissonance of not belonging in female toilets.

What changing rooms should he use if we're in a clothes shop?

There are safeguarding issues for him too.

What exactly are out trans kids supposed to do?

Ask for a copy of their impact assessment and risk assessment for the new policy because you're concerned about the safeguarding implications hence you need to see how the risks have been addressed and mitigated. they won't have been but it gives you a procedural starting point for escalating this

Agree - you can clearly state that accommodation and facilities including showering/changing will now be mixed sex, and people can decide for themselves whether that is an appropriate and safe environment for young people to be in.

I don't see how you can say that any services/spaces will be 'single gender' if you can't (quite rightly) ask the participants to state their gender identity before they participate in the trip.
I say quite rightly as gender identity is not something that everyone ascribes to, or if they do, can define clearly.

Scouting has taken a different line which recognises the safeguarding risk.

So legally they must be confident that they can do this.

OP please, please for the love of God, do not get all your information about trans issues from Mumsnet.

This is not about trans issues. This is about safeguarding. Students identifying as trans may be used as an excuse for failures here, but strong safeguarding systems should be the same for all students- this is not in any way anti-trans.

A bit like how racists like to be called “race realists” instead. Equally “radical feminist” or radfem for short - if you see that in a username or a bio I promise you are not getting unbiased information.

Oh FFS. How ironic that you accuse everyone else of prejudice then slur all feminists in the most unpleasant way.