I don't get the trans debate but now I need too

[Ayedresses]

I work for a government young organisation. It's a youth organisation that involves/revolves around residential trips. The young people are 16.

Beforehand if a young person was trans, for sleeping arrangements we would call up their friends who they wanted to share accommodation and ask if the parents were happy for their young person to share with (politically correct) person who may not associate with their biological gender.

Now things have changed. Now we must not ask a Young person for their gender and the young person can freely choose where they feel most comfortable to sleep/shower/toilet.

We very much state that these things are single gender as the young people are 16 and we wanted to assure parents that their young people are safe and not going to go home pregnant. While the same rules will apply 'boys tents over there.... Girls tents around there...' if you're trans you get to pick what camp and we're not allowed to tell their room mates nor does the YP have to tell their room mates.

At present we seem to have a fair few young people who are female to male if that makes a difference.

I'm not particularly happy with this, and I think it's a safeguarding risk and a huge headache.

Staff toilets usually are unisex though

I dont know how usual

The local comprehensive has male and female

I havent made a study though

I would expext to be disciplined if I used chidlren's toilets instead of an adults. It’s not that far different to have concerns about children using staff toilets.

Staff need to be protected (at the very least from false allegations) as much as children do.

Aren't staff toilets usually single private bathrooms (not cubicles)? I don't see how an accusation against staff could arise 🤷‍♀️

Aren't staff toilets usually single private bathrooms (not cubicles)? I don't see how an accusation against staff could arise

Definitely not! That’s rare. Some places have 3-4+ cubicles.

(In some schools, staff toilets are 'old' student ones that have been given over for staff use).

I agree lemon

Agree with a PP in that you just need to have a section on the form that says: 'Please note we allocate sleeping and bathroom accommodation based on the gender participants identify with, rather than their biological sex. Please state whether your child identifies as a girl or boy.'

And leave it to parents to complain....

Just FYI, manicinsomniac, the terms TIM and TIF aren't allowed on Mumsnet, although I still don't know why. Here's a link to the Mumsnet statement on moderation in particular with regard to trans rights. Your post may be deleted.

The thing is with this gibbering, scaremongering bullshit that treats trans kids like some kind of dangerous alien species is... there seems to be no understanding of the fact that 'same sex' accomodation for teenagers is no guarantee against bullying, humiliation and even assault. 'Oh, it's all right, we put all the girls together... and so some of them might bully and shame one another for not having grown tits yet, for having big tits, for being fat, for being 'lesbian' if they appear to have looked at another girl... Young people can be hugely self-conscious about their bodies for many, many reasons, particularly when it comes to overnight trips with their peers (scarring, stoma, weight, fear of unwanted erections,/wet dreams or suddenly starting their period - or even just being self-conscious about their underwear, particularly if they fear being bullied for having 'babyish' underwear.). You deal with it by making it known that parents of any participating child with a need for reasonable accommodation lets you know about it, and by reminding all DC on the trip to treat one another with courtesy and kindness at all times.

And the dystopian picture you paint would be improved by making overnight accommodation mixed sex? How?

Are you on glue, ReanimatedSGB?

there seems to be no understanding of the fact that 'same sex' accomodation for teenagers is no guarantee against bullying, humiliation and even assault.

I actually agree with you, SGB - single sex accommodation doesn’t mean none of the above will occur.

And trans kids are just kids - they’re as likely or as unlikely as the next teen to be involved or a victim - or both. It’s emotion messy being a teenager, no matter what sex or gender you are.

But single sex accommodation will drastically reduce the risk of sexual encounters - consenting or otherwise. And thus the unwanted consequences of having sex - pregnancy, STDs etc.

I wouldn’t want to be a volunteer or teacher or leader on a trip for teens without robust safeguarding for everyone’s sakes.

Once again, it's not about being trans. Boys pose a risk to girls because girls can get pregnant and boys can get them pregnant. It's about different bodies. A trans kid with a penis is as much of a risk to girls as any other boy. Not some different alien species, just male.

Or maybe the group leaders should follow Stephen Whittle's advice about the Girl Guides, let it be one big mixed sex free for all (after all, if you can't safeguard 100% why even bother trying?) and tell the leaders to carry condoms and emergency contraception.

Yes, I get the fact that we live in a sexist world where women are in more danger from men than men are from women.
That still doesn't
a) make single-sex spaces utterly safe for women/girls. Because women/girls can be violent, predatory or spiteful.
b) make sex-segregation some form of effective contraception, if you're dealing with teens who are old enough to be interested in sexual activity.
c) mean that being trans makes young people a greater threat to their peers than not being trans would.

OP is talking about youth organisation sleepovers. Banning trans children is not the way to guarantee these are safe spaces for kids. (Statistically, predatory youth group leaders are a bigger danger). Plenty of kids aren't wild about stripping off/changing clothes in front of anyone else: enough of them will have absorbed that other toxic message about how if anyone sees your underwear it's your fault if they hurt you.
There are many ways in which kids on sleepovers could bully, frighten, distress and hurt one another. It's the job of the adults present to a) remind them not to be unkind and b) provide a haven for any kid who is being bullied.

And you stopl/reduce unwanted teen pregnancies by a) educating kids about contraception and b) enforcing the importance of consent.

Staff toilets usually are unisex though
Ridley I’ve taught for 30 years in two different UK countries, t counties and 6 schools and I have never seen a unisex staff toilet. In schools, toilets are sex-segregated for both pupils and teachers in the vast majority of cases. It is also poor safeguarding to allow any pupil to use any staff toilet.

That’s 5 counties. Not t.

Make everything unisex?
Does that solve the problem?

The trouble is the Western world has gone mad pandering to the so-called rights of interest groups.

@cardibach

well that's the trouble. Older people like us need to move with the times.

Banning trans children is not the way to guarantee these are safe spaces for kids.

People aren't suggesting banning trans people SGB, they're suggesting accommodation should take their sex into account as well as their gender. Because a risk mitigation strategy doesn't have to be perfect to be well worth doing.

Just FYI, manicinsomniac, the terms TIM and TIF aren't allowed on Mumsnet, although I still don't know why. Here's a link to the Mumsnet statement on moderation in particular with regard to trans rights. Your post may be deleted

What?! Why? I genuinely thought those were the appropriate, generally accepted terms nowadays. What are we supposed to use?

Really sorry to cause any offence; how embarrassing!

Sorry Prawn - I don't know why I'm asking you seeing as you've a) posted me a link and b) said you don't know! I just panicked when I saw 'not allowed' and 'deleted' and didn't read much else!

Sorry Cardibach - was extrapolating from my quite small sample which was stupid of me.

Really sorry to cause any offence; how embarrassing!

The 'additional rules' were brought in on the FWR chat board ;ast year where much of the discussion about the impact on Safeguarding & women's right from gender self id happens.
(They are pinned to the FWR board)

Im not sure the rules were promoted or monitored as consistantly elsewhere on the site.

manic What?! Why? I genuinely thought those were the appropriate, generally accepted terms nowadays

Why? Mainly because the individuals who monitor this board and report en masses as much as they humanly can (not members, they just don't like us uppity wimmin talking) don't like people to use terminology which more clearly and accurately describes them. They prefer to use coy and more ambiguous sounding phrases.

They appear not to care so much about actual insults and very derogatory personal comments made about them on places like Kiwi Farms, Pistonheads etc, which are mostly male-populated boards.

One can only speculate why that is.

ReanimatedSGB You seem not to understand Safeguarding or how the frameworks work to protect children & vunerable adults.

You also seem not to be aware of the many ways which adults & organisations identify & manage the risks to all children on residential trips.

Safeguarding can never eradicate all risks. It is about identifying & then managing & mitigating risks.

Interesting you have highlighted consent. This is a key aspect as the removal of single sex intimate & sleeping spaces in prioritising 'gender self-id' of some pupils impacts children & teenagers understanding and capacity to consent.

Banning trans children is not the way to guarantee these are safe spaces for kids.

I genuinely don't think the OP is looking to ban them. Separate accommodation is usually the way forward (and I suppose they might prefer this? I'm not clear if it's being offered as yet).

Also, as OP has referred to FtM trans kids, I would be very wary about placing them with teenage boys who'll know that they are biologically female (because few pass unless on hormones). I'm thinking about that awful Brandon Teena case and how they were raped by their attackers before they were murdered. I'm not sure how many FtM trans people are raped each year, but I think putting them in with a bunch of teenage boys could increase the risk of incidents.