I don't get the trans debate but now I need too

[Ayedresses]

I work for a government young organisation. It's a youth organisation that involves/revolves around residential trips. The young people are 16.

Beforehand if a young person was trans, for sleeping arrangements we would call up their friends who they wanted to share accommodation and ask if the parents were happy for their young person to share with (politically correct) person who may not associate with their biological gender.

Now things have changed. Now we must not ask a Young person for their gender and the young person can freely choose where they feel most comfortable to sleep/shower/toilet.

We very much state that these things are single gender as the young people are 16 and we wanted to assure parents that their young people are safe and not going to go home pregnant. While the same rules will apply 'boys tents over there.... Girls tents around there...' if you're trans you get to pick what camp and we're not allowed to tell their room mates nor does the YP have to tell their room mates.

At present we seem to have a fair few young people who are female to male if that makes a difference.

I'm not particularly happy with this, and I think it's a safeguarding risk and a huge headache.

Somewhereinbetween1 The Op is describing a set-up where no-one is 'assigned' to any bedroom. The teenagers are free to choose.

If it was a - to use an old fashioned term, meaning biological, for clarity - girl put into a teenage boys' bedroom, I would expect - not fear, expect - them (or whatever pronoun they wish to use) to face a lot of sexual 'banter', possibly harassment, have their privacy invaded by the curious, and potentially raped. If it was a teenage boy - again, old fashioned term - put into the girls' bedroom, it is possible that they would simply mind their own business, being genuinely confused. It is also possibly that they will consider the act of having pushed their way into the female room as sufficient validation of their ego and power. It is also possible that they will sit there staring at all the girls leering at them for sexual gratification, and the girls will have no right of protest. Other possibilities are that it will end in them 'persuading', with various levels of forcefulness, one of the biological girls into sex, because otherwise the girl isn't being nice enough. Perhaps sneaking into someone else's bed and outright rape.

what might happen if someone who was trans were assigned to a bedroom of the gender they associate with?

Well, exactly the same might happen as if any other mixed-sex arrangement was put in place. Are you advocating for that too?

No residentials would/should enable 16 year olds to choose sleeping spaces with the opposite sex.

It means adequate risk assessments havent been completed.

Not trying to be goady at all here just genuinely interested, what exactly are your fears for what might happen if someone who was trans were assigned to a bedroom of the gender they associate with

What defines a trans girl? For clarity I mean a boy who 'identifies as a girl' It's obviously unrelated to clothes, make up, pink accessories or kittens, because plenty of girls are uninterested in these things.

What's to stop a male sexual predator announcing that he 'identifies as a girl' once he works out that's all he needs to do to gain access to spaces where girls are changing, showering and sleeping?

Somewhere the risk of rape and pregnancy. That can happen in single gender but mixed sex accommodation. It can't in single sex accommodation without someone of the opposite sex breaking the rules to enter that space, and sleeping spaces have heightened risks of bullying and assault as people are vulnerable in private spaces while changing and sleeping.

lottie The Op is describing a set-up where no-one is 'assigned' to any bedroom. The teenagers are free to choose.

I read it as the trans children are free to choose.
The non trans children will have to put up and shut up otherwise they run the risk of being declared transphobic.
The organisation should be proactive in protecting all the children, which should mean single sex accommodation as a default.

Children who identify as trans do not 'opt out' of sex based risks either those their sex presents to the opposite sex or those risks they are subject to from the opposite sex.

The language of trans & gender is obscuring identification of sex-based risk.

Any organisation which does not understand this is demonstrating a lack of Safeguarding knowledge & understanding.

There will be other circumstances where a child/children need to have individual accomdation for additional needs & to ensure their safety, dignity & privacy. This should be considered on an individual basis sensitively & respectfully working with the child & where appropriate their parents/carers

A girl is not at heightened risk because there is someone who is trans sharing accommodation. A girl is at heightened risk because there is someone who is the opposite sex sharing accommodation.

We had this with foreign language students. I ended up having to put a boy and girl in a shared room putting me in breach of my obligations had signed a contract saying no mixed sex rooms. Plus our family strictly only ever host girls. We were landed with a boy in eye shadow. Dh was absolutely furious. The language school didn’t know what to to do. I have now specified sex not gender female only.

A girl is not at heightened risk because there is someone who is trans sharing accommodation. A girl is at heightened risk because there is someone who is the opposite sex sharing accommodation.

This ^^

Female children who identify as trans present no additional risks to other female children.

The organisation should consider the potential additional individual needs of the female child who identifies as trans eg risk of bullying, need for privacy etc However these are specific to the individual child and should not be assumed due to their gender identification.

Here’s the thing.

A trans woman (biologically male) feels they cannot possibly share with other biological males. So everyone is made to jump to allow them (biologically male) to be allowed to share with biological females.

A woman (biologically female) is not allowed to say they feel they cannot possibly share with a biological male because they will be called a bigot and told they hold abhorrent views.

Tell me why this is allowed.

We had this with foreign language students. I ended up having to put a boy and girl in a shared room putting me in breach of my obligations had signed a contract saying no mixed sex rooms. Plus our family strictly only ever host girls. We were landed with a boy in eye shadow. Dh was absolutely furious. The language school didn’t know what to to do

The language school is demonstrating they do not understand Safeguarding.

It represents systemic Safeguarding framework failure.

TeenTimesTwo I read it as the trans children are free to choose. But who decides who is trans and on what basis? Any child is free to 'opt in' aren't they? No-one is going to be asked for 'evidence' that they are trans, how can one provide evidence for an internal feeling or belief anyway?

It was just a response to someone who asked about trans-people being 'assigned' to sleeping quarters, making the point that (whether or not anyone else is 'assigned' to a tent), no-one is 'assigning' anyone claiming to be trans to anything. They are choosing.

This has to be higher risk than in the Girl Guides. Hate the thought of female to male girls being in an all boys' dormitory.

We had this with foreign language students. I ended up having to put a boy and girl in a shared room putting me in breach of my obligations had signed a contract saying no mixed sex rooms. Plus our family strictly only ever host girls. We were landed with a boy in eye shadow. Dh was absolutely furious. The language school didn’t know what to to do

And this is why anyone who asks for 'gender' on a form in any sort of official capacity needs to be 100% sure what they are actually asking and if they mean 'sex' make sure they write sex, because if people who believe they have a gender identity and that differs from their sex, that's where issues like this crop up. You see it all the time, because the general population sees gender as a synonym or polite word for sex but there is a minority who use the words in a very different way.

If something happened to a FTM-identified child in a boys' dorm, everyone would get dragged into the investigation. I wouldn't assent to that risk for a son of mine.

Very good point. I hadn't thought of that angle.

Allowing boys who identify as girls to share sleeping and washing facilities with the girls would probably upset the girls. It would also bar girls from some faiths from attending completely.

Has your organisation considered that?

Oksowhatnext I think at 12 your child needs to go to the sex appropriate toilets, presumably as there is no medical intervention periods will start soon (if not already) and obviously women’s toilets are better equipped.

Regarding sleeping arrangements, this should also be sex based. You don’t say which sex they are attracted to so as a parent I would put them where they were least likely to get pregnant or get someone else pregnant.

Are these (or similar) your dormitory rules?
'Male and female participants are separated into single gender accommodation and are not allowed to enter each others’ rooms.

Some accommodation, including bathrooms, may be shared with other young people but it will only be with participants of the same gender.'

I'd be querying that if I was a parent of a teenager going on this trip.

trans young people are just young people, no more or less likely to be predatory than heterosexual or gay young people.

OK 1) trans has nothing to do with sexuality, nothing at all. 2) "no more or less likely to be predatory" is exactly right. A boy identifying as a girl is no more or less likely to be predatory than a boy identifying as a boy. The risk of putting a male trans child in with girls is exactly the same as putting any other male child in with the girls. The risk is from male bodies to female bodies, not male identities to female identities. If you wouldn't allow a fully mixed sex accommodation, then you shouldn't make exceptions for trans children. For everyone's safety.

OP, look up "the Cornwall Guidance" for trans children in schools, its a gold standard document with some very sensible compassionate common sense advice for problems just like this one.

I wouldn't have thought a gym girl would want to share with boys.At 16 they will still be wearing binders,still having periods and all the boys in that tent will see a girl.So for the trans here humiliating at best and high risk at worst.

There also seems to be an assumption that the boys wouldn't mind someone they knew full well was a girl in their dorm. I bet most of them would mind very much indeed.

^Male and female participants are separated into single gender accommodation and are not allowed to enter each others’ rooms.

Some accommodation, including bathrooms, may be shared with other young people but it will only be with participants of the same gender.'

I'd be querying that if I was a parent of a teenager going on this trip^

Most of the general population would not realise that this is not necessarily the same as 'same sex'.

Thank you to everyone on here. It's given me a lot of places to start for more information and I've also copied this thread on the feminist board hoping that someone will help me draft an email.