I don't get the trans debate but now I need too

[Ayedresses]

I work for a government young organisation. It's a youth organisation that involves/revolves around residential trips. The young people are 16.

Beforehand if a young person was trans, for sleeping arrangements we would call up their friends who they wanted to share accommodation and ask if the parents were happy for their young person to share with (politically correct) person who may not associate with their biological gender.

Now things have changed. Now we must not ask a Young person for their gender and the young person can freely choose where they feel most comfortable to sleep/shower/toilet.

We very much state that these things are single gender as the young people are 16 and we wanted to assure parents that their young people are safe and not going to go home pregnant. While the same rules will apply 'boys tents over there.... Girls tents around there...' if you're trans you get to pick what camp and we're not allowed to tell their room mates nor does the YP have to tell their room mates.

At present we seem to have a fair few young people who are female to male if that makes a difference.

I'm not particularly happy with this, and I think it's a safeguarding risk and a huge headache.

We had this with foreign language students. I ended up having to put a boy and girl in a shared room putting me in breach of my obligations had signed a contract saying no mixed sex rooms. Plus our family strictly only ever host girls. We were landed with a boy in eye shadow. Dh was absolutely furious. The language school didn’t know what to to do.

@MsTSwift
That is appalling.
How did the girl feel about it? And were her parents aware of the situation?

lobby groups & individuals who dont understand Safeguarding & Child Protection.
Or who actively wish to have Safeguarding & Child Protection cast aside.

Or who actively wish to have Safeguarding & Child Protection cast aside

Any individual or group who are actively wishing or attemting to have Safeguarding & Child Protection cast aside represent risk to children & vulnerable adults.

It is a Safeguarding responsibility to identify that risk & to mitigate it.

My point is that the constant trans-bashing and scaremongering about trans kids is very fucking tiresome.

Agree that no one should be trans-bashing or scaremongering about trans kids. I don't think anyone IS doing that on this thread.
The fact of someone having a trans identity is not the issue.
The fact of being trans means that those kids will have sexed bodies opposite to their gender identity.
Sleeping arrangements etc for safeguarding are organised via sex (biology) for the reasons all given above.

The presence of a trans teenager in the dormitory of the gender/sex they identify with is no smaller or greater an inherent risk than the presence of a gay teenager - but good luck trying to insist that endangers the other kids or makes them 'uncomfortable' in a way that should be pandered to.

Gay teens won't get other teens pregnant.

It's not teenagers' sexuality or gender identity that makes them dangerous: it's whether or not they are bullies or otherwise inclined to abuse their peers.

I don't think anyone thinks the trans teens are dangerous.
I think people think that safeguarding cannot be made on a case by case basis, as that is wide open to abuse.

My point is that the constant trans-bashing and scaremongering about trans kids is very fucking tiresome

Don't read the threads then.

The presence of a trans teenager in the dormitory of the the gender/sex they identify with is no smaller or greater an inherent risk than the presence of a gay teenager

Depends. I wouldn't want a gay teenage boy sharing with the girls either. However there is no problem with a lesbian sharing with the girls.

Last year the rising levels of sexual harrassment & abuse of girls in schools was documented by an APPG.

See also today in Guardian re teenagers in FE (average ages 16-19 years)

"Sexual abuse is commonplace in further education colleges in the UK, according to new research, with one in seven students saying they have been raped or subjected to an attempted rape.

The findings of the NUS Women’s Campaign paint a stark picture of life in colleges, with women in particular being subjected to a range of unwanted sexual behaviour.

Three-quarters of respondents had an unwanted sexual experience at least once, while three in 10 had been pressured to establish an unwanted sexual or romantic relationship. More than one in three had experienced unwanted sexual contact such as pinching or groping.

Only one in seven who had experienced any form of unwanted sexual behaviour reported it, with more than half saying they did not think it was serious enough, raising fears it has become normalised." (continues)

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jun/20/sexual-abuse-rife-uk-further-education-colleges-study

no more or less likely to be predatory than heterosexual or gay young people.

But people with penises ARE more likely than people without them to be predatory.

Which is why we have sex-segregated areas, including for sleeping.

Suggesting sex segregated spaces should not exist because some girls are mean to other girls seems to be spectacularly disingenuous.

Is women wanting sex segregated spaces, and not wanting to share sleeping areas with people with penises really fucking tiresome?

By conflating sex and gender identity it obscures the fact that there are key sex-based differences & risks (regardless of sexual orientation or trans identification)

Has anyone mentioned the mythical predatory lesbian on this thread yet?

I'm never quite sure what the female predators sexuality has to do with anything...unless these people think that only lesbian women assault other women or that they are more likely than straight women to assault other women . So homophobia is fine apparently but any perceived transphobia is a big no no.

Don't you think it's just a bit of a leap to assume that having a trans girl in with the other girls means that trans girl is going to be busy trying to impregnate them? Or that otherwise well-behaved and kind hearted boys are going to be so freaked out by a trans boy amongst them that they will immediately erupt into sexual violence?

And, to the PP with the story about foreign exchange students: how did you know that the kid with eyeshadow was a boy? Did you insist on a full-body inspection, or did you just assume that this kid looked too masculine?

@ReanimatedSGB Don't you think it's just a bit of a leap to assume that having a trans girl in with the other girls means that trans girl is going to be busy trying to impregnate them? Or that otherwise well-behaved and kind hearted boys are going to be so freaked out by a trans boy amongst them that they will immediately erupt into sexual violence?

Do you actually think posting in this disingenuous way persuades anyone? Or are you just trying to derail?

No one (except you) has said any of those things. If you want to get rid of single sex accomodation for children so badly then address the actual point of disagreement:

1. Why do you think single sex rules are the norm for organisations dealing with children if not for the reasons given by PPs?

1. Do you not accept that mixed sex dorms causes any increased risk of unwanted behaviour or of consensual sexual behaviour where inappropriate?

1. Why not completely mixed sex dorms? What does 'gender' in this context have to do with safeguarding procedures?

Don't you think it's just a bit of a leap to assume that having a trans girl in with the other girls means that trans girl is going to be busy trying to impregnate them? Or that otherwise well-behaved and kind hearted boys are going to be so freaked out by a trans boy amongst them that they will immediately erupt into sexual violence?

You clearly don't spend time with groups of hormonal teens.
Or you have an agenda based on minimising known risks and safeguarding for all children and staff concerned.

Either way, you are talking out of your arse.

how did you know that the kid with eyeshadow was a boy? Did you insist on a full-body inspection, or did you just assume that this kid looked too masculine?

Has anyone mentioned the mythical predatory lesbian on this thread yet?

I just need that one and NAMALT to get a full house.

DonQuixote I just need that one and NAMALT to get a full house.

is "The presence of a trans teenager in the dormitory of the the gender/sex they identify with is no smaller or greater an inherent risk than the presence of a gay teenager" enough to bag you a twofer?

My kids are all off on camp shortly. I have 2 girls and a boy.

There is no way I want the boy to share with a biological girl. I love my son and am bringing him up to (hopefully) respect everyone and their boundaries. I do not want him to be in a position where he could be accused of inappropriate behaviour.

There is no way I want the girls to share with a biological male.

Safeguarding rules are not there to be bent because of an individual circumstance. They are there to manage risk for all.

Ffs. Some posters are so disingenuous.

Feel the need to go ask about this with the camp leader. I haven't because I know the kids going and assume this is not an issue. I guess it could become one at some point.

is "The presence of a trans teenager in the dormitory of the the gender/sex they identify with is no smaller or greater an inherent risk than the presence of a gay teenager" enough to bag you a twofer?

I'm calling it, though I think some of the scary old ladies with six cards and a dabber in each hand may argue :-)

House

Don't you think it's just a bit of a leap to assume that having a trans girl in with the other girls means that trans girl is going to be busy trying to impregnate them

What is wrong with you?

Who on earth said that the transgirl will be busy trying to impregnate then...thats a dreadful thing to say

In our situation he was definitely a boy! He just wore some eye make up. He shared with a girl they were both happy about this. My issues were I felt we were liable to her parents. We were in breach of our obligations to not put mixed sex kids in shared room. Plus we only host girls as we have young girls ourselves and their room next to dds. Plus dh has refused to host boys. It’s our house so we get to set our rules. Which were all trampled on btw. It was only a week but I felt it was handled badly.

My son got a job with NCS last summer, shortly before the residential was due to start.

His DBS check did not come through in time but they were still contemplating letting him go.

He resigned as he had just qualified as a teacher and feared that if their safeguarding was bad enough to let him go unchecked, what else was going on?

So, wouldn't have too much faith in the safeguarding abilities of NCS, if that's who we are talking about here.

Actually thinking about dh wanted written confirmation from the girls parents that they agreed to the arrangement so they couldn’t sue us. He’s a litigator so coming at from that angle but he felt we were exposed on that

The issue of consent it hugely important here. The children involved are unable to consent to sharing their space with people of the opposite sex if they are not being made aware that that is the case.

The dialogue around this topic makes it very difficult for anyone to question without being accused of transphobia and consequently, it breaks down the primary defence of raising questions when you feel uncomfortable about something.

Ensuring the silence of your victims is the predators best weapon. The scenarios which might ensue, have nothing to do with assuming trans people are predatory, but that there are people who would take advantage of the newly blurred lines and that all of the children involved are at risk from this and that the risk is increased by a failure to ensure that sleeping areas are segregated by sex.

Or that otherwise well-behaved and kind hearted boys are going to be so freaked out by a trans boy amongst them that they will immediately erupt into sexual violence?

You're denying the potential for transphobically-motivated violence? You're denying that FtM individuals are vulnerable to what is sometimes termed 'corrective rape'?

Bloody hell. I thought one of the main factors behind Self-ID originally was to help protect MtFs from assault, including sexual assault, (which is a goal I agree with if not necessarily the method). I have always agreed (well ever since trans people educated me on it) that toilets are a big concern for MtF trans people who are working towards getting a GRC but haven't got it yet because using the men's will out them as bio men.

How the fuck am I having to explain this to someone who is positioning themselves as a trans-ally?

Pre-operative individuals who can't or won't pass should ideally have separate rooms. This respects the trans* person's gender identity, safeguards them physically from bullying, and safeguards them from being falsely accused of sexual assault. Oh, and finally, it also safeguards the people they might room with from being sexually assaulted.

Don't you think it's just a bit of a leap to assume that having a trans girl in with the other girls means that trans girl is going to be busy trying to impregnate them?

No one said that. No one.
It’s nothing to do with trans identities. It’s to do with sexed bodies.
It’s not about intent, it’s about opportunity.

Or that otherwise well-behaved and kind hearted boys are going to be so freaked out by a trans boy amongst them that they will immediately erupt into sexual violence?
Again, no one said that.

Trans kids are kids. We shouldn’t be putting ANY of them in potentially unsafe situations, or putt v the onus on individual people in positions of responsibility to make judgement calls.

That’s why laws and rules are made. To protect.

JamieVardysHavingAParty I completely get your points.

All children are vulnerable and I can only imagine the vulnerability for a trans child. They're dealing with enough stuff already.