I don't get the trans debate but now I need too

[Ayedresses]

I work for a government young organisation. It's a youth organisation that involves/revolves around residential trips. The young people are 16.

Beforehand if a young person was trans, for sleeping arrangements we would call up their friends who they wanted to share accommodation and ask if the parents were happy for their young person to share with (politically correct) person who may not associate with their biological gender.

Now things have changed. Now we must not ask a Young person for their gender and the young person can freely choose where they feel most comfortable to sleep/shower/toilet.

We very much state that these things are single gender as the young people are 16 and we wanted to assure parents that their young people are safe and not going to go home pregnant. While the same rules will apply 'boys tents over there.... Girls tents around there...' if you're trans you get to pick what camp and we're not allowed to tell their room mates nor does the YP have to tell their room mates.

At present we seem to have a fair few young people who are female to male if that makes a difference.

I'm not particularly happy with this, and I think it's a safeguarding risk and a huge headache.

Staff toilets usually are unisex though

No this is a bizare thing to assert as fact.
Its not true.

Also, as OP has referred to FtM trans kids, I would be very wary about placing them with teenage boys who'll know that they are biologically female

The children's sex is the key factor.
If children are also identifying as 'trans' they will have additional needs to consider.
These children & young people require the same levels of care, support & safeguarding as other children.

The terminology of designating them as 'trans children' obfuscates & frustrates Safeguarding & good practice.

As the children in the OP are 16 they will not have a GRC, nor will they have had surgeries. They may have started to take cross-sex hormones since their 16th birthday though this is not inevitable.

They are not therefore FtM or MtF, they are female or male children who amongst all else that is significant in their life also identify as 'transgender'. This can mean many different things & they will be at very different points in what it means in their life.
There are sex-based differences which impact risk.

Many will likely desist.

It is doing them a disservice to accord a blanket response & label.

Increasing numbers of eloquent young women are speaking out about the periods in their life, contributory factors & impacts of having identified as 'transgender'.
Adults in youth organisations, schools etc all need to be aware of the wider picture & Duty of Care owed to all children & young people.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3507109-Pique-Resilience-Project-young-detransitioned-women-sharing-their-personal-stories

They are not therefore FtM or MtF, they are female or male children who amongst all else that is significant in their life also identify as 'transgender'

This. On top of everything else in their lives, they don’t deserve to be put at risk by for example, encouraging a 16 year old female child to share sleeping accommodation with 16 year old boys

These children deserve to have the same safeguarding as any other child

Those suggesting otherwise are unbelievably irresponsible

Again single-sex sleeping accomodation is no guarantee against young people bullying one another. Group leaders must surely be capable of dealing with a variety of additional needs and requirements on a case-by-case basis, or they shouldn't be doing the job in the first place.

Again single-sex sleeping accomodation is no guarantee against young people bullying one another. Group leaders must surely be capable of dealing with a variety of additional needs and requirements on a case-by-case basis, or they shouldn't be doing the job in the first place.

Of course not. But it’s a step in the right direction and so much better than allowing mixed sex sleeping because a child feels different. (And many teens never transition anyway and change their minds after a few years. The ADULTS need to be adulting in this situation and not bending over backwards to do things that go against all common sense to pander to such a tiny percent, and ending up putting them at risk, anyway).

Again single-sex sleeping accomodation is no guarantee against young people bullying one another

No one is saying that

Is that actually your argument, reanimated?

That because there is a comparatively minuscule possibility of same sex bullying, that all sex segregation for safeguarding should be cancelled?

Really?

ReanimatedSGB Just to better understand your position, do you think we should dispense with sex segregated sleeping arrangements altogether? Do you see no safeguarding value in them at all? Or do you think that sex segregation is a reasonable safeguarding measure in general, but that it specifically shouldn't apply to children who identify as transgender? If you understand that boys are, in general, a greater risk to girls than girls are to girls, then what is it about "identifying as female" that you think reduces this risk? Or is that risk simply not worth guarding against at all because it can never be done completely or perfectly?

Single-sex sleeping accomodation is no guarantee against young people bullying one another. Group leaders must surely be capable of dealing with a variety of additional needs and requirements on a case-by-case basis, or they shouldn't be doing the job in the first place.

Group leaders are enabled by Safeguarding frameworks to manage risk & to discharge their Duty of Care.

There are a number of well established planks to the framework, so for example all adults will have to have DBS checks (these have limits to what they establish however they are of significant value). The need for DBS is applied across all adults on residentials. It doesnt mean that a sexual adult predator will not be on the trip.

Suggesting that organisations and adults should manage things on a 'case by case' basis demonstrates again that you do notunderstand how Safeguarding works.

There are other situations when 'individual case by case' requests will have challenged the single sex sleeping /intimate areas policy.

For example on a trip with over 16's its not unheard of for a couple to present and argue that as they sleep together at their parents home & are engaged then they should be able to share etc.

Why do you think the answer is always no?
Why do you think staff also sleep in single sex accomodation regardless of any intimate relationships they might have?

What's clear on this thread is that there are people who have not the slightest clue in all that is involved in ensuring that residential trips are enriching, positive & also safe.

if they start saying “we have to do it, it’s the law”, this is not correct. It is only correct if someone has a GRC, which you can only get when you are 18.

It is still not correct, even if someone has a GRC.
If there is a legitimate reason to maintain single-sex services or spaces, it is legal to exclude a trans person, in that situation.

If there is a legitimate reason to maintain single-sex services or spaces, it is legal to exclude a trans person, in that situation.

Yes, legitimate to exlude a person of the opposite sex who is also transgender.

doesnt make sex-segregation some form of effective contraception, if you're dealing with teens who are old enough to be interested in sexual activity.

Of course sex segregated sleeping doesn’t mean there don’t be encounters round the back of the bike sheds or in a secluded bit of the woods. But it will drastically cut down on opportunity.

And consent, sex education etc all very well but when kids are being taught in school that you really CAN change sex, add in raging hormones and clear-thinking isn’t often at the forefront of any teens who are experimenting. Whilst it would be nice to believe consent and pressure and biological understanding of pregnancy prevention has come a long way since the ‘can’t get pregnant on the first time’ days, there’s a much greater level of obfuscation around gender lines. If two ‘girls’ are experimenting sexually but one has a penis then the likelihood of pregnancy is massively increased to the one with the womb.

I wouldn’t want to be the adult leader on that trip.

My point is that the constant trans-bashing and scaremongering about trans kids is very fucking tiresome. The presence of a trans teenager in the dormitory of the the gender/sex they identify with is no smaller or greater an inherent risk than the presence of a gay teenager - but good luck trying to insist that endangers the other kids or makes them 'uncomfortable' in a way that should be pandered to.

It's not teenagers' sexuality or gender identity that makes them dangerous: it's whether or not they are bullies or otherwise inclined to abuse their peers.

My point is that the constant trans-bashing and scaremongering about trans kids is very fucking tiresome. The presence of a trans teenager in the dormitory of the the gender/sex they identify with is no smaller or greater an inherent risk than the presence of a gay teenager - but good luck trying to insist that endangers the other kids or makes them 'uncomfortable' in a way that should be pandered to.

There is no 'trans bashing' or 'scaremongering'

This is about Safeguarding principles & good practice when organising residential trips for children.

There are key issues which are relevent with regards sex.
These are not issues of gender-identity or sexual orientation.

Im unsure why you are so keen to cause a breach in Safeguarding frameworks for a children's residential trip.

THe safety, dignity & privacy of all children on the trip (including those who identify as 'trans') is the key concern of the organisers who have a Duty of Care in this circumstance.

Im worried about pregnancy

I would be worried about dd getting pregnant or one of my sons (should they identify as a girl) getting a girl pregnant

I have absolutely no fears about a trans child being anywhere near my children on a day to day basis

I do not want trans children being banned from anywhere but i would appreciate being told that somewhere is now mixed sex so i can be prepared. Its the lack of information i find an issue

And no...i dont need to know if there is a trans child there...just that should it arise that the prevailing view is that it should be mixed sex

And unless im really missing something massive i do not have to worry about my gay children in that scenario

I fail to see how that makes me transphobic or trans hating or trans bashing

In fact you would have to go a fair fucking way to find anything like that in my posts

At the very least, parents should be made aware of the new policy of the organisation.
They can them make their own informed decision on whether they want their child to attend.

If it's all so safe and sensible, why are organisations bringing it in so sneakily?

doesnt make sex-segregation some form of effective contraception, if you're dealing with teens who are old enough to be interested in sexual activity

Well clearly you have little understanding of the issues with regards protecting children & young people.

FYI adult supervisors of teenage residential trips will take very seriously harm minimisation in the event of children & young people either having sex or being sexually assaulted.

Ensuring that children have single sex accomodation and intimate areas eg changing rooms, showers, toilets etc are one aspect of the Safeguarding framework. There are many others.

The presence of a trans teenager in the dormitory of the the gender/sex they identify with is no smaller or greater an inherent risk than the presence of a gay teenager

FFS - putting a female teenager who identifies as a boy into a dorm full of teenage boys puts the the trans teen at risk - is that really something you're happy with for the sake of being woke?

The presence of a trans teenager in the dormitory of the the gender/sex they identify with is no smaller or greater an inherent risk than the presence of a gay teenager

This is manipulative & disingenous.

By conflating sex and gender identity it obscures the fact that there are key sex-based differences & risks (regardless of sexual orientation or trans identification)

Male children present a known risk to female children.
This does not mean that all male children are a risk to all female children.

Children of both sexes (particularly teenagers) need single sex spaces for their privacy & dignity.

putting a female teenager who identifies as a boy into a dorm full of teenage boys puts the the trans teen at risk - is that really something you're happy with for the sake of being woke?

One has to wonder why the safeguarding of a female child who identifies as trans is dismissed (so determindly)

The presence of a trans teenager in the dormitory of the the gender/sex they identify with is no smaller or greater an inherent risk than the presence of a gay teenager

This is not true. The presence of a trans teenager in the dorm of the gender they identify with will increase the risk of pregnancy - either of a female child sharing with a male child who identifies as female, or of a female child identifying as male sharing with male children.

The risk does not arise because they are trans or because they are sharing with someone who is trans. It is because they are the opposite sex from others in that dormitory. This risk does not arise from the presence of a gay teenager because they are not the opposite sex and is therefore lower.

Strike out my last four words! Last sentence should be: "This risk does not arise from the presence of a gay teenager because they are not the opposite sex"

Adults supervising children's residential trips will be alert the needs of a teenager who is gay or lesbian in the context of any potential risks of bullying/homophobia from other children.

Adults supervising children's residential trips will be alert to the needs of any child or young person who might be subject to bullying etc.

This is partly why often rooms/dorms are allocated when the children are known well. Children are often enabled to identify a particular friend who they might be in a dorm with if larger numbers.

Children of different ages are more usually allocated rooms with their peers etc etc etc

A great deal of work goes into planning residential trips.
They take a great deal of energy & effort to ensure they go well.

Adults running these trips should not be disempowered from making sound Safeguarding decisions by lobby groups & individuals who dont understand Safeguarding & Child Protection.