I don't get the trans debate but now I need too

[Ayedresses]

I work for a government young organisation. It's a youth organisation that involves/revolves around residential trips. The young people are 16.

Beforehand if a young person was trans, for sleeping arrangements we would call up their friends who they wanted to share accommodation and ask if the parents were happy for their young person to share with (politically correct) person who may not associate with their biological gender.

Now things have changed. Now we must not ask a Young person for their gender and the young person can freely choose where they feel most comfortable to sleep/shower/toilet.

We very much state that these things are single gender as the young people are 16 and we wanted to assure parents that their young people are safe and not going to go home pregnant. While the same rules will apply 'boys tents over there.... Girls tents around there...' if you're trans you get to pick what camp and we're not allowed to tell their room mates nor does the YP have to tell their room mates.

At present we seem to have a fair few young people who are female to male if that makes a difference.

I'm not particularly happy with this, and I think it's a safeguarding risk and a huge headache.

If he goes on camp being a male identifying child but still sleeps in a female tent (as he would probably want to do as most as his friends are female) would parents of girls he was sharing a tent with not want him in with them now?

Of course your child should and would be welcomed into the Girls tents/toilets and washing facilities. Your child is biologically female, they by law are allowed into female facilities.

OKso your child cannot make another child pregnant. They could become pregnant (hypothetically at least). So, they belong in the tent of their biological sex. There is no sex difference to cause concern for parents of the girls sharing.

OP, I think setting out the policy you've been given as a clear, simple message to parents would be helpful, then reflecting that back to HQ. 'So this is what we're saying to parents: same gender, mixed sex tents and participants are free to identify however they wish, whenever they like, right?'

See what the response is, then raise any concerns arising.

Parents will sue, if you lie to them, then there's a problem.

I think if you don’t have a safeguarding lead that knows how to sort this sensitively then you’ve got bigger issues.

If he goes on camp being a male identifying child but still sleeps in a female tent (as he would probably want to do as most as his friends are female) would parents of girls he was sharing a tent with not want him in with them now?

He is biologically female. Would you really want him sharing a tent with boys? I can't imagine many parents would object to two (biological) girls sharing just because one of them wears 'male' clothes and uses male pronouns.

There are safeguarding issues for him too.

Indeed. I think OP is trying to safeguard all children in her care. Quite a brave thing to go against management on this.

I have been following the ed Davey webchat, where this issue was raised. I had no idea of how much this issue affects society in all sorts of ways. I am reading this thread with interest. What is ncs?

Oksowhatnext; Given that your child isn't magically going to actually become a boy, I'd have thought parents of female friends would be fine with a female child still sharing with them. Because female is what they are; no amount of wishful thinking or proclamations on identity will change that. The concern would be the safeguarding around a person with a penis, not what clothes they are wearing.

Sending a 12 year old female child alone into the gents is surely a terrible idea. So ladies it is.

Equating gender critical feminists with racists is totally uncalled for by the way. Refusing to deny biological reality and wanting to protect women and girls is really ok as a standpoint.

www.transgendertrend.com/scout-association-new-transgender-guidance-big-step-forward/
This is a transgender trend article on the Scout Guidance and the nuance they have put into it.

Its a good explaination of how there is latitude to accommodate the needs of everyone in the group, but not at the expense of anyone.

I appreciate that not everyone like transgender trend but this particular article is quite a good explainer on how the Scouts have sort to balance needs fairly and sensitively.

This is the official scout guidance as a reference point too:
members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/supporting-trans-young-people?cat=377,378

So, in my simplistic world, biological females sleeping space, biological male sleeping space. Gender wise, dress whichever gender you want, call yourself whatever you want.

@WhoopDeFuckingDo
Ice, your post says “a chance of a trans person attending the event” and goes on to say that may “quite rightly” put people off attending. Maybe you didn’t mean it the way it reads.

I read it too, I'm really hoping it wasn't meant that way though

Those who attend should know there is a chance of a trans person attending the event / sharing accommodation. Or are they worried that this would quite rightly put people off attending

I think the point is to talk to the parents of the child, and work out a personalised plan rather than a strict line of if they say they are male, then treat them completely like a male etc etc. (So third spaces are a potential option)

That was a straight up copy and paste, before somebody says I've taken the strike out option off - it automatically comes up like that when you paste and it really does read as what WhoopDeFuckingDo said.

LimeKiwi I have already said that is not how I intended it to be read.

That's been addressed. It was in the context of the sharing accommodation if that's an integral part of the event. Not wanting your child in mixed sex accommodation is an entirely legitimate, and indeed possibly majority (certainly for teens), viewpoint.

I read it too, I'm really hoping it wasn't meant that way though

Ice has clarified that they meant the sleeping arrangements would put people off.

It's slightly poorly phrased, but you have to take the worst interpretation of the post, ignore the context of the thread and ignore the clarification, to accuse pp of transphobia.

Day time activities I would be fine with though I'm not sure about the toilets situation. Nighttime mixed sex accommodation would be an absolute no.
if a trans person Disney feel comfortable sleeping with their biological sex peers then they should have individual sleeping spaces and not be put in with the opposite sex. I volunteer with brownies and we have sleepovers so I'm glad this hasn't come up for us as a group yet.

Btw, the risk, from a parent's point of view, of allowing mixed-sex sleeping and changing, is to their children of both sexes.

If something happened to a FTM-identified child in a boys' dorm, everyone would get dragged into the investigation. I wouldn't assent to that risk for a son of mine.

It's slightly poorly phrased, but you have to take the worst interpretation of the post, ignore the context of the thread and ignore the clarification, to accuse pp of transphobia.

I'm just saying how it read - if it wasn't meant that way, then I'm glad

What policies does your organisation have in place to prevent same sex assault and bullying during these events, OP? Or, indeed, to prevent teens sneaking off and impregnating one another in the middle of the night?
While I appreciate that no organisation or event can absolutely guarantee that people won't hurt one another at some point (if there was a way to guarantee this, we wouldn't have any crimes) please bear in mind that trans young people are just young people, no more or less likely to be predatory than heterosexual or gay young people.

We very much state that these things are single gender as the young people are 16 and we wanted to assure parents that their young people are safe and not going to go home pregnant. While the same rules will apply 'boys tents over there.... Girls tents around there...' if you're trans you get to pick what camp and we're not allowed to tell their room mates nor does the YP have to tell their room mates

Safeguarding decisions are based on identifying risk.

The 'risk' element with regards girls and boys sharing intimate spaces is due to sex (not gender/ gender identity identity)

Its appropriate to make individual risk assessments/support plans for any child who has additional needs. This should include assement for potential bullying.

It would be appropriate to ensure that concerns & issues that young person who identifies as transgender may have are taken into account.

Adult supervisors should be able to make sensitive & informed decisions so that all children are protected & enabled to take part.

A risk assessment/Safeguarding policy re intimate spaces which is based on gender self-id (rather than sex) is not fit for purpose.

There is a lot of anti trans rhetoric, propaganda, misinformation and scaremongering about.

No. There is a lot of concern about safeguarding women in the face ot the removal of our rights to single sex spaces and experience. Because we know that men can be and too often are sexual predators against women. Bear in mind that most on here are women, and many of us have experienced this for ourselves. We all know teenage girls cannot walk down a British street without harassment from men, most of us from direct experience. We all know that if girls and women do get raped, they will be piled on by people telling them that it is all their own fault, that the legal system will be as much hell and torture to navigate as the rape itself, and will most likely not result in conviction. These are facts we discover ourselves. This is our reality.

After all, it is literal violence just to deny someone else's reality all by itself, isn't it? Or is it?

The first thing I would do, is to make it clear that ALL parents need to be informed that the rooms etc are not longer single gender. That there will be women and transwomen, and men and transmen.

If everyone coming on camp knows the rooms are possibly mixed gender then they are informed.

if your bosses are not happy with that inofrmation going out, then you have a massive safeguarding issue

whoops, sorry, the rooms are single gender, which may mean mixed sex

Not trying to be goady at all here just genuinely interested, what exactly are your fears for what might happen if someone who was trans were assigned to a bedroom of the gender they associate with?

I don't think the phrasing 'single gender' works either, if we're to be inclusive. If the aim is to be accessible to people however they identify, then naming spaces as 'single gender' is pointless/unhelpful as it would exclude young people who identify as non-binary, genderfluid, genderqueer etc.

Single sex, whatever gender is the way forward IMHO.

Its worth reflecting on why housing homeless (over crowding) law has specific rules with regards children of the opposite sex not having to share bedrooms over 10 years old.

Why is this?
Why is it not about opposite 'gender' / gender identity?

The reason is Safeguarding & recognising that ove 10 years old there are sex-based differences & consequential risks.

This does not mean that all brothers are a risk to all sisters.

NSPCC
"Parents and carers need to decide sleeping arrangements in the family home to ensure that all children are safe and their needs are met. As children get older and their desire for privacy increases, sleeping arrangements may need to be reviewed.

If you're renting or your home is owned by a housing association there may be rules in place restricting children over 10 of the opposite sex from sharing a room"

www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-protection-system/legal-definition-child-rights-law/bedroom-sharing-moving-out/