To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

[Angryresister]

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

Now to be fair men who identify as men have been helpers for at least 25 years, so not sure why this matters

YANBU. I would absolutely want to know.

I find it seriously offensive that you conflate trans men with sexual predators.

No you don’t have the right to know a stranger’s medical history.

But don’t worry, I’m sure lots of bigots will be along soon to tell you you’re right.

Seriously, we do this here every fucking day. It’s the worst thing about mumsnet. Every single day another thread like this. All it does is stir up hatred and fear. It’s vile.

Because men who identify as men don't sleep alongside the girls, presumably. A trans woman who becomes a Guider is to be treated as a woman and no parents will be told. Ditto boys. Girls who identify as boys are now expected to leave. Being in a single sex space might be a big help for a confused girl struggling with her changing body. But the Guides have ditched sex for gender.

That should have read “trans women”. Not “trans men”.

You’re not sure why this matters? Wow

Ok, so a male helper identifying as a male follows correct safeguarding procedures, separate faculties to sleep, change etc when on camp for example.

A trans women is allowed to sleep in the same room and use the same showering facilities as female children and this is absolutely fine, this applies to teenage trans girls as well. So a 16 year old male bodied person can sleep right next to your pre teen girl and use the same toilets and showers, and you as a parent have no right to be told this.

This matters to me. I am incandescent to hear that leaders have been sacked for daring to stick up for girls.

Adult volunteers don’t sleep in the same room as girls.

No one is saying all trans people are predatory any more than all men are predatory. Safeguarding is about looking at risks. Men commit almost all sex offences. So more precautions have to be taken when men and boys are around.

This sort of attitude boils my piss. The victims are the poor men and women who have lived their lives in the wrong body and have the courage to come forward and tell us how they feel. They need our support , not a witch hunt. You wait until it's your son or daughter and you will realise how incredibly brave they have to be every day of their lives , facing the attitudes of people like you who are convinced that all they want to do is abuse children.

DH and I have decided our daughters will not be joining girl guides. I will not have a teenage daughter of mine sharing sleeping/shower facilities with anyone who has a fully functioning penis, no matter how they identify themselves.

The world has gone mad.

I think OP and lots of other parents are more concerned with “self ID” when person just “feels” like a woman but still has fully functional male genitalia.
I certainly wouldn’t be happy for my very tiny 11 year old DD to be in that situation.

What does "living in the wrong body" even mean?

Just what I was thinking Albus.

I don't know Bezalelle, shall I ask DS1? Why do I come on these threads?

**Bezalelle
How very fortunate for you that you have absolutely no idea.i hope nobody in your close circle has the misery of finding out. Can I just say that I used to have your attitude. But a friend if ours has a teenage daughter who now quite obviously identifies as a male. She has been brave beyond words. But let this be very clear....there is no choice...she wishes she felt female to match with her body. She doesn't "she" knows she is male. I have enormous empathy for her and I look back to how used to feel and think " I got it wrong" and I'm embarrassed and sorry.

If my son truly believed he was a woman and wanted to live as a woman then he would have my full support.

However I would remind them that so long as he has a penis, he could potentially upset some women if he were to be in their toilets/female only spaces.

I would recognise his life was hard, but unless he was fully transitioned I wouldn’t view him as a woman.

That simply wearing a dress and make-up and saying you feel woman today does not actually make you a woman. Because it is insulting to women because he has not had the life challenges women face in the patriarchy, through menstruation, through pregnancy and lactating which is when quite often women first experience when we are not equal and the menopause, through domestic and seXual abuse. I grant him that undertaking serious body altering operations and medications will also put him a vulnerable position. He will have a long and sometimes lonely road to travel, he will require lots of support and acceptance. But at 15 or 16 he should not be sleeping in the same room as girls and probably not boys either. Because like all children of his age he his not fully grown, his sexuality not fully formed. He will not truly know himself for at least another decade and he shouldn’t trample over girls rights because of the cruel twist of fate that he was born in the wrong body.

Yet another trans-bashing thread on MN. I seriously hope they take this dog whistle transphobia down. Gays used to be subjected to it in decades past when ill-educated people would make sure their children would be kept away because of course all gays were only interested in children. Thankfully we seem to have moved away from that kind of bigoted thick-as-mince thinking. But unfortunately trans people are now on the receiving end. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

This is why my kids don't go anymore.

This thread is based on the premise that trans people are predatory peadophiles. It displays ignorance and bigotry and attacks a marginalised section of society. I would be terribly disappointed if MN were to allow this. What next?

Captainproton
You would feel differently if it actually was your son or daughter. They are so vulnerable and excluded from so many things. You would be delighted that an organisation had recognised that this actually happens and had given them support and a bit of hope.

I’m not worried about trans women or trans girls in Guides. I don’t think trans women or trans girls are sexual predators.

I do think that allowing people to self ID and immediately be treated as the opposite sex opens the door to sexual predators who see this as an opportunity.

I have absolutely no doubt that making it Girl Guides policy that anyone who claims to identify as female can share sleeping and intimate facilities with girls and be protected by a layer of secrecy does put girls at risk.

I think when it comes to residentials in Guides, school trips etc then teenagers should be sleeping separately to anyone with the body of the opposite sex, regardless of how they identify.

I think the Guides policy will lead to a lot of girls missing out due to their parents’ worry. Girls from religious, conservative backgrounds in particular will have no chance of going.

I think in this instance, girls should be prioritised and I think this policy is shameful.

Juells
You are very rude as well as bigoted. I wonder if you will always be able to live your life like this or if one day the penny will drop and will think that you should have been a bit kinder.

It is the self identifying people that see their validation as more important than how women and girls feel. There is a perfectly good organisation which caters to everybody known as the scouts where everyone is welcome and safeguarding is taken more seriously. Why don't women and girls get to choose single sex organisations, in a world where actually is us that get the worst treatment in terms of sexual abuse and harassment? Even girl guiding did a study on girls emotional health recently..

Why is it trans bashing? To repeat, nobody is saying that transgender people are any more likely than anyone else to be sex offenders. But after all the scandals of the past, all sorts of measures have been put in place to protect children. These safeguarding measures are important. What is about trans rights that make them uniquely more important than the safeguarding of children and other vulnerable people?

Also, self-id is a gift to predatory men. We all know that many men who have assaulted women, girls and boys have been found in professions requiring long training like the priesthood, medicine, teaching. Sex offenders will go to great lengths to get access to vulnerable people. Why would they draw the line at downloading a form and filling it in, when they don't have to get it countersigned by a medic or any other checks/gatekeeping?

I don't understand why people are so keen to waive the rules that apply to all of us for the tiny minority who identify as trans. Nobody else's rights top safeguarding, and rightly so. Why is children's safeguarding less important than trans rights?