To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

[Angryresister]

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

What about teenage boys self iding as girls? We should just let him share sleeping space with the girls? What happens if he gets aroused if they undress? Maybe unexpectedly? Maybe he never felt that way before? Maybe he masturbates in his bed? Maybe he has a wet dream? Maybe a girl who has been raped sees his penis and has flashbacks?

This is not just about volunteers.

There have always been a very few children who are unhappy with their bodies and need psychiatric help because of their distress. The Gender Identity clinic at the Tavistock publishes their figures.

In 2009/10 56 boys and 40 girls were referred.

In 2017/18 713 boys and 1806 girls were referred.

The government has announced an inquiry into why there has been such a huge increase in referrals, especially for girls. There is evidence emerging that girls who never showed any signs of gender confusion in childhood are declaring themselves transgender or nonbinary in adolescence, and it's happening in clusters, with whole friendship groups transitioning in rapid succession. It's called Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.

The distress many adolescent girls feel as they go through puberty and adjust to being young women in a sexist world is entirely understandable. We all know it can be a very grim time. Young women are very prone to self-harm, eating disorders, anxiety and other destructive behaviour. Binding the breasts and taking testosterone may be another manifestation of that. Transactivists would say no, but it's such a rapid change in society and potentially so damaging to these young women that it does need investigation.

We live in a very pressured world these days for young people. Schools are very target-driven, which is no doubt one reason girls' mental health is so poor. Girls have to contend with having their lives and all their friends' lives played out on social media, lots of selfies so great pressure to look a certain way. Young people are exposed to porn from a shockingly early age, and there appears to be expectation from some boys that girls will submit to/carry out sex acts which a few years ago would have been regarded as extreme, without any corresponding expectation that the girls will enjoy it. Even some evidence that boys who've watched a lot of porn have come to believe that girls crying is an essential part of sex. Epidemic of sexual violence in schools.

No wonder many girls are opting out of womanhood. The Guides could be a big part of addressing these issues if they remained single sex. It's a great shame they've abandoned that principle.

Have I missed something? Why are people saying they shouldn't be allowed to skip the DBS check? Who said they should? Surely everyone knows you need a background check to work with children.

If you set aside the main and obvious reasons why they should be DBS checked, the scouting community (guides included) aren't going to allow risking their business because one person refuses to be fully checked. They risk a very public safe guarding case which would jeopardize their future as a group. The person refusing to be checked just wouldn't be able to volunteer.

Why not Scrumple? This weekend DS 7's at his friend's dad's house in a different county. Even PFB DH doesn't see anything wrong with that.

DBS is a red herring.

It asks you to list all previous names, but anyone, whatever their sex/gender history could omit one or more. Hatever your background. But it's risky, as lying on a DBS form tends to lead to decisions to bar when it is found out. And yes, there are some issues which tie your legal/official names over a lifetime to your birth identity.

I see no reason to be more damning of one group another here (other than bigotry) especially when a predator with no criminal record, who does not need the tras a Brownie staffer or volunteer, is the one likely to pose the greatest unseen risk

scrumplez you are in the minority then! Why not?

The lunatics have well and truly taken over the asylum.

Have I missed something? Why are people saying they shouldn't be allowed to skip the DBS check? Who said they should? Surely everyone knows you need a background check to work with children.

Who is saying they should be allowed to skip the DBS check?

My concern is whether the DBS would reveal past crimes committed under their previous incarnation. I don't know whether it would - which is why I ask.

It would be a real concern if there is no way for a DBS to trace a person's previous name (any person, not just trans) but hopefully the system is a lot more sophisticated than having to rely on voluntary disclosures of previous names.

My son an daughter were both cubs and went on numerous camps with male and female leaders. There are very strict rules and adult leaders of any gender are not allowed to even use the same toilets. This is the same organisation as the guides so will have the same rules. I can't see in this scenario that it makes any difference if the the leader has genuinly transitioned. I think in general we need to be aware of the fakers who will pretend to transition for various advantages and to commit crimes. Going back to Guides, you should get to know the leaders in anycase if you are sending your children off on a camp for example. I think you will know if someone has transitioned and if they are genuine leaders.

This thread is based on the premise that trans people are predatory peadophiles.

Nope, it's based on the premise that MALES are the vast, vast majority of predatory paedophiles, and allowing them free access to young girls without telling the parents is wrong. It is a system wide open to abuse.

Transwomen still have to have background checks. Every Girlguiding volunteer does, and you can do a DBS or PVG using their name.

But not their born name. Any crimes committed as a man will not show up. Again - wide open to abuse.

My children are Maori, and 1 in 2 Maori girls suffers serious sexual abuse before the age of 16. The rates for boys are also higher, though not as high.
That combined with my own history of sexual abuse in childhood, makes me very wary. So far they haven't been bothered by that.

I think I've made my point quite clear in my posts. You seem to have a real reading comprehension problem

Your point seemed to be that if a Wikipedia page doesn’t have the previous name why would/should a DBS?

My point is that they are different so there’s no point comparing the two.

Hardly rocket science nor is it an issue of comprehension. But I guess that’s all you’ve got as opposed to addressing the substance of my post.

I think in general we need to be aware of the fakers who will pretend to transition for various advantages and to commit crimes. Going back to Guides, you should get to know the leaders in anycase if you are sending your children off on a camp for example. I think you will know if someone has transitioned and if they are genuine leaders.

Are you really that naive? Do you really think you can “spot” a sex attacker? Oh, if only all women and girl were like you, we could have avoided hundreds of years of sexual assault and rape.

This is obviously a highly emotive subject but what doesn't seem to have been answered but forgive me if it has - is there even a situation whereby adults actually share spaces where children should have their privacy? A couple of people have already mentioned that adults don't share spaces with the children - i.e. showers, sleeping areas. Also, girls can join Cubs now too so if people are worried about men in these situations, presumably it's not just guides that they would be worried about.

This thread is based on the premise that trans people are predatory peadophiles

Incorrect. Why should people be able to hide their background for the purposes of checking for criminal history?

Everyone adult volunteer in the guide and scouting world is subject to background checks and have to give previously used names. I don’t hear them screeching about being seen as pardophiles. They just crack on and get checked or walk away. Same rules for everyone.

I know a DBS check isn’t infallible but its what we have and can be handled sensitively. I don’t think it’s for parents to know if a leader has changed gender. It’s between the guides and that individual.

I see no reason to be more damning of one group another here (other than bigotry) especially when a predator with no criminal record, who does not need the tras a Brownie staffer or volunteer, is the one likely to pose the greatest unseen risk

I don't think it's bigotry to raise the issue about a particular group in this scenario if that particular group could potentially end up sharing intimate space with young females. A man self ID'd as a man who fails to disclose any previous name - just as possible - would still not get to share intimate space with young females whereas a trans woman might.

But yes, my question about the DBS check was more of a general one - do they always rely on total honesty from the person filling in the form or
are their systems more robust than that?

Nope, it's based on the premise that MALES are the vast, vast majority of predatory paedophiles, and allowing them free access to young girls without telling the parents is wrong

Your premise would be an argument for preventing MALES from having access to any young children - boys or girls - not just those who identify as women.

whether the DBS would reveal past crimes committed under their previous incarnation. I don't know whether it would - which is why I ask.

No it doesn't. You aren't allowed to ask their previous name so it relies on them being forthcoming with it and saying 'please check this name too.' Which if they're a predatory man looking to gain access to young girls - they wouldn't do, would they?

@tempester28 I've had some involvement with the Cubs, and the safeguarding is very strict. Adults aren't allowed to be alone with a child on a one to one basis.
And they don't sleep in the same space as the children. When camping they have their own tents.

There is choosing to do something or having it forced upon you.

Why can't girls have a single sex space?

Most people seem very focused on the leaders here, but there are also serious issues with the young people.

A girl who believes she is a boy will be managed out of the unit as she does not identify as a girl.

A boy who identified as a girl will be welcomed into the unit and treated as a girl - activities, sleeping accomodation, showers... Parents will not be told that their girls are sharing a space with a boy, and if the girls themselves object to sharing a space with a boy their bigotry will be gently explained to them.

Boys in a previously all girls space changes things. It's not all about rape and sexual assaults (though obviously these are a concern) it's about how having a boy in the group changes things for the girls.

Now to be fair men who identify as men have been helpers for at least 25 years, so not sure why this matters

Because men who identify as men are not allowed to sleep in the same tent as a girl. Or share a communal shower with a girl. Or use the same toilet as a girl.

This thread is based on the premise that trans people are predatory peadophiles.

No it is based on the FACT that predatory paedophiles will exploit any and every loophole in order to access children.

To think otherwise is naive.

Your premise would be an argument for preventing MALES from having access to any young children - boys or girls - not just those who identify as women.

No - im saying that allowing a man (who has not been fully DBS checked) to don a disguise that children trust (presenting as a woman) and then allowing them to be alone with and share intimate spaces with those children (without even telling the parents) is wrong.

This system allows any man, trans or predator or otherwise, to do this unquestioned.

You cannot think that is right, surely?