To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

[Angryresister]

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

[Believeitornot]

The victims are the poor men and women who have lived their lives in the wrong body and have the courage to come forward and tell us how they feel

There’s also the need to safeguard children. It’s a circle to be squared.

I do not get offended when, as an adult volunteer I’m required to have DBS checks. I’m not a paedophile. So why are people who wish to identify as a women and become guide leaders surprised that they too should be subject to background checks especially if they’ve changed identities?

It’s not about them. So let’s not put them above protecting children.

[underneaththeash]

All organisations have a legal duty to keep any medical (or other) information confidential so informing other people of a trans man/woman leading or attending a meeting could not occur anywhere.

I think the girl guiding association has its hands tied, it can't be seen to be acting with prejudice towards one set of people, especially something that is currently in vogue.

[SnuggyBuggy]

Caroline surely though you greatly sympathize with what this person is going through you must logically realize they will never be a real man.

Female spaces should be female only. Not all men are predators either.

[ButchyRestingFace]

The vast majority of sexual assaults and violent crimes are committed by biological males.

Being a man who feelz like a lady doesn't change the fact that they are still biological males.

Hence, parents should be made aware on safeguarding grounds, and trans women should not be allowed to share single sex space with female children (i.e., changing rooms, showering facilities, sleeping in the same room).

Good luck expressing that view at your Guide group though. 🍀🤞

[LyndorCake]

Yeah but the adults don't sleep in the same room as the teens. At least not when I went. I did rainbows, brownies, guides and young leaders and never slept in the same room as brown owl or any other adult. They were always in the next room over and came through to tell us off every now and then when we were being noisy.
Even showers wouldn't be a problem as the adults would be up and showered usually before they even came to wake us. It's not like we needed adult supervision to shower.
We used to go on camps with the boy groups and the only thing separating us from the teenage boys would be a few trees

[ButchyRestingFace]

I do not get offended when, as an adult volunteer I’m required to have DBS checks. I’m not a paedophile. So why are people who wish to identify as a women and become guide leaders surprised that they too should be subject to background checks especially if they’ve changed identities?

Would an organisation even be able to effectively DBS a transperson? Is asking for their "dead name" considered an act of literal violence?

[captainproton]

Caroline161 I doubt it tbh, I wouldn’t want any gender confused child of mine sharing spaces with boys or girls at night or when showering. Perhaps his own space? I would have no idea if any of the girls he shared a room with were victims of sexual abuse. His rights don’t trump theirs.

He can join another organisation which accepts boys and girls together. They exist already he has no bloody need to be a girl guide.

[Ghanagirl]

@Collaborate
Stop being so incredibly single minded.
I don’t have issues if someone feels they are in the “wrong body” but like many women I am suspicious of grown men or large adolescent boys who haven’t taken hormone blockers and still have male genitalia in female only spaces.
I don’t feel safe undressing in front of a stranger who’s stronger than me and capable of a male sexual response.
I’d feel terrified if my DD was in this situation.
I don’t think all transwomen are predators but I don’t think all men are but difference is I’m not expected to let my DD undress in front of strange men.
If you don’t get that then you must hate girls and women.

[caroline161]

gender confused? yes you would definitely be using language like that as a parent of somebody who identified as the wrong sex

I'm going to have to walk away from this time warp. Les Dawson will turn up in a minute and start telling mother in law jokes.

[Juells]

caroline

Juells
You are very rude as well as bigoted.

Saying that other people's attitude boils your piss isn't rude at all?

After all the child abuse scandals, when it's been made absolutely clear that people will do anything - become a priest, work in children's care homes, work tirelessly for charities - to gain access to children, you think men won't think "All I have to do is say I'm a woman and I have unfetterred access to young girls. Whoopee!". It's already happening in prisons, where rapists have hit on the good wheeze that they can be locked up with women who can't get away from them if they say they're women. Sex abusers are prepared to put huge effort into their predating. Claiming to be a woman when you need to do absolutely nothing but put on a wig and dress is very little effort.

[Believeitornot]

Would an organisation even be able to effectively DBS a transperson? Is asking for their "dead name" considered an act of literal violence?

What about people who’ve divorced from violent partners and name changed? They’d have to give their old name? Sorry but the child comes first.

It doesn’t matter if the adults sleep away from the children. All the other volunteers have to have full dbs background checks. Being trans doesn’t make you special or exempt.

Ian Huntley changed his gender. A ridiculous scenario to follow: Imagine if he was a guide leader but didn’t provide background details of his previous names. He passes a dbs check and commits crimes again.

There would be public outrage and a demand for name changes to be traceable as part of dbs checks.

It’s going to take children being harmed before the right measures are in place.

Fucking disgusting.

[Scrumplestiltskin]

@caroline161
The victims are the poor men and women who have lived their lives in the wrong body
I think you'll find the majority of trans people disagree with your framing there, and would consider your beliefs transphobic and invalidating, as most "trans women" do not consider their penises to be male, or necessarily even "wrong".
These screenshots were taken from one post on reddit today.

[Soontobe60]

A man who has gone through gender reassignment is totally different to a man who is dressings as a woman. The same goes for a woman.
Girl guides and scouts leaders can be, and indeed many are, gay. No one would expect that to be announced in the weekly newsletter! The same right should be shown to gender reassigned men and women. However, many many people feel extremely uncomfortable about people self identifying as the opposite sex. That's very understandable. It will take time for it to become the norm.
Having been a guide leader, I know that adults do not share bedrooms with children, nor do they share showers or toilets. That's nothing to do with gender, it's to do with adults and children! The challenge comes with other children who self identify, because they will be sharing spaces. I don't for one minute think there's going to be a sexual assault every time this happens, but I do think girls will feel very uncomfortable sharing bedrooms and showers with boys; many girls don't even want to share with other girls! I don't know what the answer is, but rushing in and forcing the issue certainly isn't it.
Let's be very clear though, putting in a dress does not make you a girl. Wearing trousers does not make you a boy. A man will never be able to carry a baby and give birth. A woman will never be able to get another woman pregnant. You can't change your DNA, you can only change your appearance. Nobody is born in the wrong body. You are born with the body you have got.

[captainproton]

A teenage boy believing he is a girl is gender confused. I refuse to believe that at 15 or 16 the majority of children are mature enough to know for sure. A life ruined by hormones being blocked.

[ofclocksandkings]

Transwomen still have to have background checks. Every Girlguiding volunteer does, and you can do a DBS or PVG using their name.

And your daughters do share shower facilities with men every day - your DHs.

Bored now of this same topic coming up again and again and again. I doubt that you're actually concerned for the girls, but just using this opportunity to state your dislike for trans people.

[ButchyRestingFace]

What about people who’ve divorced from violent partners and name changed? They’d have to give their old name? Sorry but the child comes first.

I don't know who you're preaching at, Believeitornot. It's a question - one that you haven't answered in your rant, so I gather you don't know the answer either.

If you look at the Wikipedia names of trans people, in many cases, their birth names aren't even given. It would be interesting to know whether considerations of public safety, safeguarding etc, do in fact trump the "dead naming" issue for DBS purposes.

And then there's the issue of, how do the authorities even find out the dead name if a transperson only submits their current name? Would the DBS system be able to trace previous names alerting them to past offences?

Lots of questions...

[WhatIsThisTomfoolery]

The usual mumsnet froth

Yet you all let your teen DD's go off on sleepovers in random friends houses....those houses could then have anyone visit. ALL out of your control.

Uncles
Nephews
Neighbours
Friends
Colleagues
'Pillars of community'
Grandparents

The list goes on....

[Scrumplestiltskin]

Yet you all let your teen DD's go off on sleepovers in random friends houses....those houses could then have anyone visit. ALL out of your control.

Actually I don't

[captainproton]

My dds don’t share shower facilities with my dh. Who the hell does that beyond preschool years?

[Believeitornot]

It's a question - one that you haven't answered in your rant, so I gather you don't know the answer either

My answer is yes the name should be given and there should be a link to historic name changes.

Because the child comes first.

[ButchyRestingFace]

Transwomen still have to have background checks. Every Girlguiding volunteer does, and you can do a DBS or PVG using their name.

Yes, but will the DBS check reveal their "dead name" if the person involved doesn't voluntarily divulge it?

Martin Smith was a violent predatory offender - his DBS shows this. Martin Smith transitions to Jennifer Jones - does Ms Jones' DBS reveal previous offences committed as Martin Smith if they don't divulge their previous name?

[MoggyP]

Men have always been allowed as staff and volunteers for Brownies and Guides.

I realldon't see a significant change, as this has always been a mixed sex organisations n in terms of its leadership.

[ButchyRestingFace]

My answer is yes the name should be given and there should be a link to historic name changes.

FFS!

I'm not asking about what you think SHOULD happen. I'm asking about what DOES happen - whether anyone knows.

Clearly you don't.

[LizzieSiddal]

This thread is based on the premise that trans people are predatory peadophiles. It displays ignorance and bigotry

You are so wrong!

No one is saying all transwomen are sexual preditors, buy if we allow Self ID, some sexual preditors will self ID as women and will gain very easy access to children and teenagers.

Why is it that we have laws which protect women and girls, we have single sex toilets/changing rooms/, we only allow females to
Provide intimate care for girls in certain circumstances. These laws do not mean we think ALL men are sexual predictors, we are saying some are and women and girls deserve protection from them.

I will say this again. Self ID will mean some sexual preditors will pretend to be trans and this allow them easy access to childen

If you don’t see that you really need to wake up!

[Believeitornot]

If you look at the Wikipedia names of trans people, in many cases, their birth names aren't even given. It would be interesting to know whether considerations of public safety, safeguarding etc, do in fact trump the "dead naming" issue for DBS purposes

Wikipedia pages aren’t used for DBS purposes and can be edited by anyone so what exactly is your point?

A DBS check isn’t seen by all and sundry. Safeguards can be put around who sees the information (ie the organisation which carries out the checking) and details are only revealed when something comes up ie a crime under a previous name. There’s no need to reveal a name change exists if there’s no criminal activity attached.

So yes I do think there’s a solution of sorts.

As for teenagers who wish to change gender - that’s a separate discussion and not related to any concerns I have.