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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be terrified about what will happen if the Gender Identity Bill is passed?

999 replies

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 08/03/2017 19:42

I'm a nervous wreck right now Sad

Will it replace sex as a protected characteristic? Does that mean that women will have no legal protection at all?

I'm scared Sad.

OP posts:
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6
jellyfrizz · 09/03/2017 09:01

Whatever exemptions existed before to allow discrimination in certain circumstances (i.e., I don't want a male carer, it has to be female, which on the face of it, is discriminatory) would continue to exist, so you are mostly talking about situations where the act wouldn't apply anyway.

A few people have said something along these lines. I don't understand how could exemptions apply if no one is allowed to acknowledge that the carer is a trans person rather than the sex you requested. How would that work in practice? There is no obligation to tell an employer that you are transgender.

WobblyLegs5 · 09/03/2017 09:08

Ami I wouldn't stop myself going, but my child would be physically unable to go through panic if she realised. Ofcourse plenty of transwomen pass just fine. My little disabled girl wouldn't look at them and twig even when I do. She would look at a man with a beard or any non transioned boy who self identifies as a girl and freak out though. And for all the transwomen who pass enough to use female toilets because of the risk of assault they face in male toilets they will be again at greater risk yet again by males who want to attack them who self identify as a woman for the 2 minutes it takes them to walk into female toilets and attack the transwoman and females.

If transwomen (and true transgender children- not the four yrold who likes blue and playing with her brothers cars) are scared of using male toilets then we need two things- to address why males are able to attack and intimidate others in male spaces, to socialise them not to commit assualts, and to provide transwomen there own safe spaces, their own toilets, prisions wings, hospital wards etc. Not to allow those males they fear complete access to female safe spaces.

GahBuggerit · 09/03/2017 09:11

I pity the ones who are in total and utter denial about this, truly.

Duck et al, you have absolutely no idea what is coming your way. None.

Im no where near as eloquent as others on this thread but I'll tell you whats coming your way shall I? A man in a beard with giant swinging cock and balls in a space where you;d expect there to be only biological women.

Your daughter, if you have one, being forced to change in front of boys while both are going through puberty.

Your daughter, if she has a female related problem and woudl prefer to be seen by a biologically female doctor, being forced to have a male instead otherwise she would be committing discrimination

Your daughter, if she is ever sexually assaulted by a Man, having to be treated by another Man immediately after, because he feels a bit female

Same if you have a son, this will affect the vast numbers of decent men who for whatever reason would prefer not to share their spaces with females.

I find it bizarre that this doesnt worry you so I can only conclude that you haven't actually thought this through, you have just come on here, wanting to show how right on you are, probably listened to some of your mates who are sooooo cool and PC. Just think it through. You dont mind sharing a changing room or toilet with a man who feels like a female, you dont mind having your sex being made totally irrelevant anymore (so good bye any sort of protection against sex discrimination) - thats great, chufties for you. But guess what? You dont represent me and you dont represent other women.

Dont you dare come on here and tell a group of women, some of which have been assaulted, that we should accept this. We wont accept this and we dont accept this.

MiddleagedManic · 09/03/2017 09:11

Will bra-measuring services be an exception for sex discrimination job-wise or will 12 year old girls be measured by full adult, heterosexual men and therefore never go for a bra fitting in their lives just in case they get abused or arrested for refusing a man to do it?

WobblyLegs5 · 09/03/2017 09:11

Heck end I think men fear it more than is acknowledged, but they are socialised not to show that fear. And they can't show outrage (although napac etc do) because it's laughed down as 'real men' aren't victims.

Mrsmorton · 09/03/2017 09:12

It's my opinion that this act does trivialise the issue... someone can simply decide they are a woman or a man on the spot and access the appropriate facilities/support.

That trivialises what we are being told those with gender dysphoria or are "in the wrong body" experience. It's appropriating both what women have fought for and what genuine trans people have and are fighting for.

Why shouldn't you have to prove something? You have to prove your income to pay tax/get benefits. You have to prove your nationality/citizenship to use the NHS or to go to uni and so on. Why all of a sudden should you just be able to declare something as massively important as your gender??

GahBuggerit · 09/03/2017 09:15

Nope Middleaged - my understanding is a 12 year old just developing girl could well be measured by a man with fully functioning penis and balls.

And also, look nothing like a typical female.

Just lovely.

amispartacus · 09/03/2017 09:17

Why shouldn't you have to prove something

I do think you should have to prove something. I think that self identification has massive issues - and yes, you should jump through hoops etc to 'prove' something.

But...how do you prove it? Saying 'I feel like a woman' - WTF does that mean?
Saying you like wearing 'women's clothes' - but what are women's clothes?
Taking HRT and wanting surgery to make your body match the view in your head?
Wanting society to see you as female?
Wanting to be treated as a woman? But women and men should be treated equally...

jellyfrizz · 09/03/2017 09:22

Wanting to be treated as a woman? But women and men should be treated equally...

Yes, apart from the areas where biology matters and then we are back to biological sex.

jellyfrizz · 09/03/2017 09:23

Wanting to be treated as a woman? But women and men should be treated equally...

Yes, apart from the areas where biology matters and then we are back to biological sex.

Pseudonym99 · 09/03/2017 09:23

Although you need to protect the feelings of those who think they are women, you also need to protect the biological real women from those who feel like they are women (and vice versa for men). Perhaps they should be creating two new genders - men who think they're women, and women who think they're men.

HiDBandSIL · 09/03/2017 09:23

YANBU. I think about this every day at the moment. I think that if the proposed change in the law was widely publicised and the implications of it understood there would be a huge backlash against it.

MiddleagedManic · 09/03/2017 09:25

Am a bit behind....but, on trends link above, it says 'anyone who challenges gender norms'....

Where do I find these 'gender norms'? Are they written down somewhere so I can check if I am actually a transman? I'm in my 40s when girls played with Lego (not Lego friends pink Lego, cos no one thought it necessary), wear trousers most days, have had a career while my husband did childcare, I hate housework and don't like pink. Should I be using the men's toilets??

MrsGWay · 09/03/2017 09:26

I have two daughters and that CPS thing makes me want to weep. Time and time again teenage girls are being sexually harassed and being coerced into sexual activity. They don't appear to get any legal support but if they object to a male being in their changing room then they can be charged. So again there is a history of females not being supported but males needs are prioritised within so little time of this even being a thing.
At least teenage girls are getting the life lesson they need, females don't matter.
This is especially bad as just at the time boys are being warped by porn they are being given unlimited access to vulnerable girls, as girls in a state of undress are.

WobblyLegs5 · 09/03/2017 09:26

What's wrong with how it's required to be proved currently?

Isn't it two yrs of living as the opposite gender & therapy or similar (3 mths in the states which is scary and about to be scrapped anyways) what's wrong with that?

If my daughters (or son) has body dismorphia I would want them to have therapy (and two yrs therapy is pretty standard for many types of therapy) if at the end of two years of help and using all advised techniques they are still desperate to have a nose job/boob job/ears pinned back then I'd consider that an informed choice. Same seems reasonable when changing gender (whether physically or in day to day life)

2014newme · 09/03/2017 09:27

I think if you are genuinely terrified about this as opposed to being concerned or worried then perhaps you need some help 💐💐. I am very worried about it, but I am not terrified. Are you able to leave the house, can you eat and sleep? Please get some help.

amispartacus · 09/03/2017 09:28

Isn't it two yrs of living as the opposite gender

How do you live as the opposite gender?
If you live as the opposite gender, which toilets should you use?
What clothes do you wear?

WobblyLegs5 · 09/03/2017 09:29

It doesn't challenge gender norms it enforces them

And Mrs yes absolutely this. Plus with girls boundaries constantly being viplated socially they will be less able to speak up and say stop or report a crime if they are attacked. Our voice means nothing now as it is shot down and silenced with terf and transphobia and women are too polite to offend

MiddleagedManic · 09/03/2017 09:29

And to add....thinking if they're not written down, surely gender norms vary vastly in social groups?

WobblyLegs5 · 09/03/2017 09:30

Ami why don't you ask those who do it? Contact tumbletrans

amispartacus · 09/03/2017 09:31

Ami why don't you ask those who do it? Contact tumbletrans

I don't need to - I am trans...

But those were the questions I asked and have been asked. But if you think about it, it's subjective

ChickenMe · 09/03/2017 09:36

Women need to stop being inappropriately polite really - we are conditioned to feel guilty aren't we, to empathise at the expense of our own feelings

WobblyLegs5 · 09/03/2017 09:37

Sure it is, but there already guidelines in place, professional advice that's already followed. Why does any of that need changed. Are you unhappy with they way it already works? (Other than obvious wacting lists which happens to us all)

What needs changed is the idea that a male wearing a dress must be a woman, Nicky Wire is just aw some as a man in a dress, who is happy just being a man in a dress. A boy liking dolls isn't any less of a boy. And a self idenfication pushes traditional gender stereotypes on all children, which is dangerous for everyone

amispartacus · 09/03/2017 09:39

And a self idenfication pushes traditional gender stereotypes on all children, which is dangerous for everyone

This. Children should be allowed to be children.

thedogsitter · 09/03/2017 09:41

They will publish the draft bill a day before the debate on the 24th March if we are lucky