To be terrified about what will happen if the Gender Identity Bill is passed?

[TheWorldAccordingToToads]

I'm a nervous wreck right now

Will it replace sex as a protected characteristic? Does that mean that women will have no legal protection at all?

I'm scared .

I know the difference, but a lot of concern seems to be about being looked at and/or assualted by someone who is sexually attracted to women

I don't want dangling tackle on view in something that is meant to be a changing room for women/girls.

If I choose to go to a spa in Europe where everything is unisex, and people wander around with no clothes on, I have made that choice.

If I go for a swim in the UK and go into the ladies changing room to change, I have not made that choice.

What about a biologically male child who has social anxiety, school refusal and panic attacks because they identify as female and being treated as male makes them anxious and phobic?

Most of the time children shouldn't need to be treated as male or female.

However, sometimes women and men are different and that needs to be clearly recognised.

What about all the children being given the message that everybody has a 'gender identity' that has some kind of significance beyond the fact of their biological sex.

It's just that to rape somebody, what you need is superior strength and a penis

Complete rubbish.

Women have been convicted of rape and it can involve the use of an object. In addition to suggest that rape (must) involve superior strength shows an astonishing level of ignorance of the complexities of sexual assault!

YANBU to take an interest and have these concerns, but having read the only details of the bill available so far (it's a private members bill so takes longer to be published in full), I think YABU, as I don't think (hopefully) that the bill will do that.

The records of the debates so far state that:
"Mrs Maria Miller, supported by Jess Phillips, Mrs Flick Drummond and Ben Howlett, presented a Bill to make gender identity a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 in place of gender reassignment and to make associated provision for transgender and other persons; and for connected purposes."

So it's replacing "gender reassignment", not "sex" on the protected characteristics list.

Still something to watch carefully though, as "gender reassignment" is clearer - you will have had to go through the full process to be a protected characteristic. "Gender identity" is, as you've pointed out, more fluid and could lead to difficulties.

Also, don't forget, this is the equality act. So it sets out what you can't discriminate against. Whatever exemptions existed before to allow discrimination in certain circumstances (i.e., I don't want a male carer, it has to be female, which on the face of it, is discriminatory) would continue to exist, so you are mostly talking about situations where the act wouldn't apply anyway.

You can follow the progress of the bill and read the debates on it as it becomes available here
services.parliament.uk/bills/2016-17/genderidentityprotectedcharacteristic.html

Hope that's some comfort to you OP

Women have been convicted of rape and it can involve the use of an object.

Incorrect. As the UK law stands use of an object = sexual assault. No less terrifying, and same sentence. But legally NOT rape.

In the UK rape requires penetration by a penis. A woman can be convicted if she assists a man, for example by holding the victim down.
The vast vast majority of sex offenders are male. Arguing about edge cases to try and make it sound as if men aren't a risk is something that MRAs do.

I read on Twitter recently that fgm was offensive to 'trans' women because it includes the term female. Can you respond to the duck?

I don't want dangling tackle on view in something that is meant to be a changing room for women/girls

I'm not a fan of wrinkly buttocks and nipples around the belly button myself but I don't object to them - its just how some bodies are.
The sooner we get over our hang ups about bodies and their varieties the better off everybody will be,

Also, the mp proposing the bill, Maria miller, is chair of the women and equalities committee, so hopefully has her head switched on about some of the issues? And she's a Tory, so not known for their touchy feely side!

I accept the correction about sexual assault.
Stull not sure about why rape is relevant. As far as I know most rapes do not take place in femlae toilets and bathrooms.

That's because men are currently not allowed in them ! DUH

Girls scout your race example would be termed cultural appropriation? Why is there no out rage at gender appropriation? Surely the race apology works against the argument in that respect also as surely a male demanding access to female safe spaces and female language is gender appropriation? (And therefore as equally vile as cultural appropriation? )

Stop saying women can commit rape-don't quote the law if you're ignorant of it. Penetration without a penis is assault by penetration.
Furthermore why this "Oh women do it too". Yeah all the frigging time don't they?! When a man has to walk down a dark alley he fears being assaulted sexually by a woman leaping from the shadows doesn't he?! When he wears something revealing like shorts he fears being touched against his will for sure or commented on right? Nope.
It's the bigger picture here, the slippery slope. Allowing men to say they are women and no one says anything.

Irish it is the reality of the situation, because that's what is being taught now- pink brain blue brain made up facts that has no basis in science. Is a boy prefers girl toys and girl clothes then they must be a girl. Parents are demanding their 3 yrold are trans because they only wear girls colours and play with dolls. Because of this make believe being taught in schools.

We don't let creationism be taught as a science but this!?!? And if a boy's has all my girls problems then they need support that will help them access the male toilets, not push their way into female safe spaces

Women have been convicted of rape and it can involve the use of an object

Not in the UK.

If you use another object, that would be sexual assault.

Rape involves a penis, and for women, the possibility of pregnancy.

In addition to suggest that rape (must) involve superior strength shows an astonishing level of ignorance of the complexities of sexual assault!

There are many ways to sexually assault someone, but women, the vast majority being smaller and weaker than the vast majority of men, are particularly concerned about the kind of sexual assault that involves being physically overpowered.

Again, an argument can be made for more unisex facilities, but there is no reason to group any one together according to gender identity.

There are, however, reasons to provide different facilities and services according to biological sex.

And you can't identify as female. Female is a biological state not an identity

Bringing lesbians into it is great actually, as ta's are claiming lesbians who won't have sex with their female penis are trans phobic terfs who should be raped.

Go watch magdalena burns you tube vids first a bit of reality boost

What about a biologically male child who has social anxiety, school refusal and panic attacks because they identify as female and being treated as male makes them anxious and phobic?

Maybe it would be more helpful if society accepted that a man can have all the characteristics that are commonly attributed to women and still be a proper man?

Maybe it would be helpful if people didn't have behavioural expectations based on sex?

Maybe it's really unhelpful to suggest to children that you can 'feel' like a woman or a man, and that if that conflicts with their physical organs your body must be wrong?

Maybe the concept of gender identity is approaching things in the wrong way, and strengthening unnecessary and false concepts of gender?

It's true we don't have the wording of this bill yet. It's also true that this particular bill stands very little chance of becoming law.

We know what Miller wants because she has outlined it in the Transgender Equality Report.

She wants -

• to replace 'gender reassignment' with 'gender identity' in the equality act. This extends protection to dave who is sarah on a saturday.

• to overhaul the gender recognition act so people can self-identify. Self-identification means no medical reports, no 'living as' a gender for a period of time. Just fill in the form, send off the admin fee and you get your gender recognition certificate.

• to remove the exemptions in the Equality Act for single sex services and spaces to exclude anyone with a gender recognition certificate (see above for what that will entail).

Probably Miller has proposed this bill to start a debate. Did anybody see how the last debate went? I'm not reassured in the slightest.

Also, of course, the law is one thing, policies and guidelines something else. Other posters have presented examples of the way this is becoming the new reality already.

Fair assault isn't about sexual attracation it's about power -which is why straight men rape other men- and this bill hands total power over women to any man who wants to walk into female spaces.

Irish in the UK legally rape involves forced penetration by a penis, so crime only men do

I find this extremely concerning in terms of child safeguarding. What about situations were by law a person of the same sex has to be present with a child - in abuse scenarios for example, with police, or when a child is on their own with a professional adult in some sort of care or counselling situation? Am I reading this correctly that Steve can say he feels like Steph and can sit as that little girl's 'same sex' adult? And if anyone objects they are accused of inciting hate?

That is not to do with trans issues. I have an acquaintance who is a transwoman who wishes to quietly get on with her life and feels bullied by TRAs.

I think teens have almost been indoctrinated by this. DD is 16 and all the terms her friends come out with are boggling. They cannot seem to see that this could impinge on women's rights. I've talked to DD a lot and the thing that helped her break through the fog was the story about the transwoman wrestler taking the champion woman's award - being sporty she was incensed by the injustice. And yet would not dare to say this at school; she would be shouted down as transphobic

It's Orwellian.

Women have been convicted of rape

Well this just goes to show you haven't done your research AT ALL.

please look up male on female/male on male/ female on male.... etc crime statistics. Then tell me that women in women's safe spaces are just as dangerous as men.

Fuck me. I NEVER thought I would say this. It pains me to. But I am glad I have two sons. I cant even imagine bringing up girls in a world where this shit is thought of as ok. I really couldn't. Because as a grown woman I'm terrified.

I can't wait until my boys are old enough and I can drill it into their wee heads that the TRA agendais a dangerous one.

Someone upthread said they wouldn't go to the toilet because they were told the person was a man.

That happens to transwomen a lot. They get 'read' and someone makes a passing comment.

That transwoman could have been a transsexual. They could have had surgery and were just trying to live their lives.

OR

That transwoman could have been someone who claims to be transgender. Who identifies as a woman and claims access to women's spaces.

Where should the transwoman who identifies as transsexual go to use the toilet in a public space?

If you saw a transwoman was about to go to the toilet, would you stop yourself going?

Amidst all this it has occurred to me that you rarely hear men condemning or being bothered about rape do you? During these arguments someone always brings up male victims (presumably its women bringing it up as it's MN) but where are the men to be found who are showing outrage about male victims of sexual assaults at the hands of MEN (more common) let alone women? Sexual crime is something for women to get upset about it seems, again because of the dominant status of males. Generally, men just don't fear it. I'd hazard a guess that most females have been a victim of a sexual offence BY A MAN at some point. I can allege several exposures and several sexual touchings including having my genitals grabbed by a male in a nightclub when I wouldn't dance with him. I hit him but didn't think to report this.