To be terrified about what will happen if the Gender Identity Bill is passed?

[TheWorldAccordingToToads]

I'm a nervous wreck right now

Will it replace sex as a protected characteristic? Does that mean that women will have no legal protection at all?

I'm scared .

Things have gone backwards really. No one thought Bowie or Bolan or even Mick Jagger for that matter were trying to be women and they don't appear to be confused as to their gender. They just liked wearing make up etc

misogyny
mɪˈsɒdʒ(ə)ni
noun
dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
"she felt she was struggling against thinly disguised misogyny"

Misogyny (sexism) is the hatred of women. It does not work both ways, just like structural racism does not work both ways. Men are not structurally oppressed under patriarchy. Men were not legally raped in marriage, unable to vote, or swearing vows to obey.

Don't derail with 'what about the menz'

So Irish you think that a woman who has just been gang raped is a bigot and committing a hate crime if she doesn't want to be examined by a man who identifies as a woman when she requests a female HCP?

You sound delightful

I wouldn't challenge any of the very few trans people I have met on which toilet they want to use.

However, I would not want to be followed into the women's toilets at a nightclub by a gang of men having a 'laugh' because "it's alright love, we're all ladies now". I don't imagine the situation would be any better if I were a trans woman being followed into the women's toilets.

I think the answer is additional unisex facilities, just like in swimming pools all over the UK. They allow people to use facilities as needed, not on the basis of sex and allow parents to supervise opposite sex children. If they also allow people to go to the loo or get changed without making a statement about gender in our very gendered society, brilliant.

Thinking about this more would the CPS be able to successfully charge anybody with this hate crime without the change in law? If at the moment sex is protected but a person needs a GRC or be in the process of obtaining one to be protected by gender. So wouldn't that be needed for a successful prosecution? Or has this change in law been passed already by stealth in that it is legally being applied even though it has yet to go through Parliament.

Absolutely chicken. I don't want to post anything identifying so I will be vague.... but I had my kids who are young straight out of uni, so it's not long since I was their age. And they difference between boys toys abd girls toys and boys colours and girls colours and boys clothes and girls clothes was no where near as big a deal when I was little.

Now I have a vulnerable little girl who clings to the idea she is a girl so will wear dresses and go in the toilets with the dress sign and she will like pink and sparkles. These ideas seem to pervade everything and I have to be constantly vigilant to source books and toys and tv shows with alternative ideas (without casting judgement on the pink either). She also climbs trees and rides horses bareback and is impulsive and loud, but so anxious around people. And because she can't understand others she clings to the idea that the 'bad bullies' ate the boys so she can feel safe around girls. Which is so sad, and ofcourse we gentley challenge it constantly but I don't want to take away the semblance of safety she has created for herself either : (

But I'm sure she wouldn't have latched onto these set ideas quite so clearly if the girls like pink and boys like blue manifesto didn't have as strong as hold as it does now. Which is definately a huge leap backwards from when I was a child.

Maria Miller's bill suggests the Netherlands legislation as a model.
This means that there is no requirement or investigation into whether the person has sought surgery or medical intervention. That is the only change. The process for gender identity change remains as rigorous as before!
So those who are worried about 'a man deciding to be a woman for the afternoon' can stop worrying.
You can also stop worrying about people using the 'wrong' bathroom as a result of her bill. The current legislation (Gender Recognition Act 2004) states that physical appearance is not an adequate basis to prevent someone from using a single sex toilet.
Those who are worried about being assaulted in a toilet should perhaps direct their anxiety and efforts to dealing with the risks of being assaulted more generally.
In fact trans people are assaulted more frequently than the non trans community.
Those who refer to having a 'boy or male' phobia - does this apply to their physical appearance - in which case a lot of women must be an issue for you - or do you need a peek down their shorts first before being upset? 😉

Btw Irish there are trans gendered people who disagree with gender self ID and disagree with this bill. In fact there is a trans woman on here who disagrees with it. Are they bigoted too?

"gender norms" - a boy playing soccer in the US - must be trans (as soccer is a girls sport). A boy playing football in the UK - definitely a boy (football is a boys game).

DH (English) wearing a kilt - must be trans (skirts are women's clothes). My DF (Scots) wearing a kilt - that's OK, it's a gender norm north of the border. Is he trans if he steps foot into England wearing a kilt?

The thing that concerns me about this bill is that it means that a convicted male sexual predator - who looks like a man, feels like a man, has absolutely no desire to be anything but a man - will be able to access a space where he could easily be alone with a woman who is partially or even fully undressed just by saying the words "I'm a woman".

He doesn't have to believe it, he doesn't have to do anything about it - he just has to say the words.

That is the problem that I have with this law - I have no problem with someone who genuinely believes that they were born into the wrong body and is quietly (or even noisily) getting on with their lives.

I do have a massive problem with life being made easier for the average sexual predator to attack either me or my daughter.

I despair sometimes. Transexuals/transgender/cross dressers need to fight for their own spaces. Self ID lets all and any males into female spaces, whereas GRC just lets a limited number in, a select few.

The idea of grading MTT with some kind of a bar that they are measured against to decide who gets to join the biological women and who doesn't is just a numbers game.

Be Trans. Fight for your own spaces, amispartacus, for your own definitions, and support women's rights to truthfully and factually distinguish themselves from you. We will collaborate with trans people who accept that women and MTT are different. We will fight for the rights of women and trans folk.

But we will fight against attempts to demolish our biological definition, our boundaries and our rights.

Women have been fighting for their own rights for centuries. Do you really imagine we'll give up now? We're in this for the long term, and so are our daughters, and their daughters.

Alot of transgender people oppose this judging by my social media feed

Has anyone in the UK actually been prosecuted for objecting to changing in front of a boy who identifies as a girl?

It appears that the answer to that question is no?

It's terrifying op totally agree.

Well said Japab. We're rapidly heading towards a point where the only distinctions will be "men" and "not-men".

Well, fuck that for a game of chess. I'm not a not-man. I'm a woman. And I will fight for women's rights to my dying breath. Transpeople who are being harmed by this agenda, I will fight for you too. For your own rights. But not for you to take mine from me.

A small point - why does everyone keep calling Iris65 Irish ?

Transpeople will be harmed, they will no longer be screened for medical conditions linked to sex. A woman who has a heart attack or cancer who then transitions will seem as a man who has never had cancer or a heart attack. Medical records are closed to everyone.

I apologise unreservedly for my last comment about the shorts. It is inappropropriate.
The argument about some trans people not supporting it is not persuasive. Some black people subjected to racism shrug their shoulders too or just want to live quietly without challenging social norms.

Life being made easier for sexual predators to attack you? Please find the nearest grip shop and get yourself a whole packet.
As I said in my previous post you should be dealing with the risk of sexual assault generally not fussing about one location. Women are sexually assaulted in crowded bars, busy parks, packed tube carriages, standing in a queue at the post office - maybe we should ban these places? Or ban men from leaving their homes? What about women who are sexually assaulted in their homes?
What about the following case - a real murder that would not have happened if there were unisex toilets:

'Nardella himself first became interested in gender-neutral bathrooms after a 9-year-old boy was murdered nearly 20 years ago in a men’s room in Oceanside, California. The boy’s aunt didn’t want to accompany him into the men’s room or bring him into the ladies’ room. She found her nephew bleeding to death in the bathroom, his throat slit by a 20-year-old man who was later charged and convicted.'

And before you suggest child toilets, many places don't have space. So here's a radical idea - instead of banning people from specific places why don't we work to make all spaces safe?

Why do people think they have the right to tell me that I should not mind penises in the changing rooms? Seriously, why does that person with the penis have more of a say to where they change than I, and other females do. Fuck Right Off. I have to say that if it happened at my gym, in Glasgow, there would be a fucking riot. The women would not stand for it - me included. They can fucking arrest me but I'M NOT HAVING IT.

And to those that say that I'm a bigot - you can fuck right off too for prioritising the needs of men over the safety and privacy of women and girls

I will NEVER accept this.

But Iris the current legislation is ridiculous. There is no such thing as 'living as a woman'.

Clearly, there are people who are deeply unhappy about their biological sex to an extent that is very damaging to their lives.

However, trying to pin down the concept of gender is pretty much impossible because it is abstract and subjective.

As others have said, society is galloping on ahead of the bill, sometimes in ways that are positive (greater acceptance of difference) and particularly in the case of gender, sometimes in ways that are very negative. The current direction is to create a society that is more rather than less confined by gender.

Imagine living in a world where you could dress like Caitlyn Jenner or Kelly Maloney and rather than arguing over whether you were a real woman you could still be a real man.

I was not making any analogy between being a victim of voyeurism and being raped. You drew that parallel - not me.
I was talking about voyeurism in one point and about rape in another point. If you cannot make the distinction then I am sorry for any offence that you have taken.
As for knowing about sexual assault: I am a survivor of long term physical abuse both as a child and as an adult. I was also sexually assaulted on a train at the age of the 17 and raped several times by both an ex husband and by a boyfriend. So unless you want to draw a line between stranger rape and partner rape - yes I do what I am talking about.
And no I haven't drunk the kool aid. I am a feminist and I campaign on women's issues as well as other issues to with equality 😀
I have however been told that I sometimes adopt a tone that is too 'light' and that I use humour when discussing serious issues that sometimes others don't appreciate. So I take it on board if I have done that here. I have ASD traits and have worked in lots of places where black humour is frequent.

I was born in the 70s Wobbly, a time not normally associated with being progressive but things have changed immeasurably since then.

I grew up thinking I'm equal to any man (equal, not the same). Thatcher, for all of her sins, may have had something to do with that!

Sadly the stereotyping often comes from females who are man pleasers. I have a daughter too and it's the female relatives I have to stop from pushing the pink and fluffy agenda. If my daughter wants pink then fine but her favourite colour is yellow!

Inequality, stereotyping and sexual assaults are not a female problem but it certainly feels that way. Mums and Dads of boys need to join the fight equally.

To Iris, the issue is that the toilet situation is the tip of the iceberg. It's not all about the toilets. But there is a taboo in our culture about a male entering a female toilet. This taboo enables women to feel pretty certain there won't be any men in there and that they could challenge a man who was in there. If the man is wearing a dress he can sneak into women's spaces in disguise. The toilet analogy is just a representation of what could happen.