to think this is sexual harassment not "an equal opportunities issue"?

[SwissWank]

If I am expecting a vulva and in a private room am met with a penis...

I don't have to touch your penis, surely?

www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/trans-woman-brazilian-wax?utm_term=.wn9yL7dKK#.aoLOxVqZZ

It's not male if it isn't on a male. I would describe it as exactly what it is. A penis and a scrotum. And if it is "male" it's not very appropriate to say that to the woman herself.

It is, though. Penises and scrotums are male genitalia.

I don't hate trans people. Not at all. But they cannot redefine what something is or isn't and expect everyone to have the same views. I don't care what anyone personally chooses to think about their own body parts, but when it comes to asking someone else to touch them that is a different story. Does the pre op trans woman's belief that her penis is female trump the beauticians belief that it is male? Because it shouldn't.

Sorry not rtft. Im halfway through my waxing segment training of beauty therapy. Waxing balls is entirely different to waxing vulvas.
The beautician could not have done it. End of.

Karen quite clearly set out to do a number on the salon.

Yep.

And why is there such a strong MN attitude against trans?

There isn't, hazeimcgee. There is a strong attitude against women being told that they are no longer entitled to women's facilities, or women's services, and that people with penises have rights that always trump women's rights, even in women's space. You might like to know that some transwomen agree with us on this, and these transwomen suffer a lot of abuse from extreme trans activists because of it, just as some feminists do.

Surely we're all free to live our lives how we want if it doesn't cause harm?

Yes, I agree! But allowing people with penises into sex-segregated women's public and private place directly does put women in danger. The most benign outcome is that women will withdraw from those areas of public life (gyms, public building, etc) where they can't have privacy from people with male bodies. This reverses hundreds of years of women's rights. The worst outcome is that incredibly vulnerable women who have no choice, eg women in domestic violence shelters, prisons, etc, will be at serious and continued risk of extreme mental and physical damage. There already is harm being caused - some of us here think that there has to be another way.

hazeimcgee the 'general trans threads' on feminist chat boards are a good read if you have the time as to why many on MN feel some trans issues are a danger to women and women's rights

It's not male if it isn't on a male. I would describe it as exactly what it is. A penis and a scrotum. And if it is "male" it's not very appropriate to say that to the woman herself.

What an utterly ridiculous statement. It is a male organ and it is on a male.

I think this whole thing had to be a setup. I actually use that salon (one of their other branches) to have my eyebrows done because they are incredibly professional.

I suspect that Karen knew perfectly well that the salon didn't wax male genitalia, and that was the whole point of it. What person (whether they choose to call themselves male or female) would want an untrained person with hot wax coming near their scrotum? If it had been a misunderstanding, they would have clarified at time of booking, or quickly put their clothes on, apologised, and gone on with their day (possibly asking for a recommendation of somewhere that can provide that service).

It was a stitch up.

But the feminist section of mumsnet is anti trans. Most posters believe that gender is a social construct and there is no such thing as a male and female brain, therefore you're either male or female and you can't change the fact. Or that's the impression I get from lurking. Forgive me if I'm wrong/ too simplistic in my view.

Karen is completely in the wrong. She should have stated that she was pre op trans. The woman in the salon was completely within her rights and professionally correct to refuse treatment.

goth. If you think understanding biology makes you anti trans, then yes you will think a lot of us are transphobic.

I don't think knowing that you can't change your sex and TW remain make is hateful, any more than saying certain ethnic groups are more likely to be lactose intolerant is racist - these are facts.

Personally I believe that telling people they can change their sex when they can't, and that the whole world will/should recognise them immediately for the beautiful woman they are is cruel. Most MTT don't pass and mental health after transition is no better than before. I think it's much healthier to say ""you're a man who wants to wear a dress and make up? That's great, be a gender non conforming man"

If you look at Miranda Yardley vs the transactivists, she clearly enjoys better mental health - she is coherent, cogent and reasonable. She attributes this in part to the fact she accepts she is male and doesn't have constant cognitive dissonance about the issue.

Karen obviously has issues
Its wrong to punish everyone else for her issues
I feel sorry for the salon owner
I don't see what they should have done differently

Most posters believe that gender is a social construct and there is no such thing as a male and female brain, therefore you're either male or female and you can't change the fact.

True but I can't see what's wrong about this? There is zero evidence to back up the make and female brain concept

*male

Yes soup that's why I joined mn 6 years ago. to post this one thing.

I'm a time traveling turf cyborg from the future.

See, I'm prepared to accept I may be "wrong" and that lady-brains do exist, it's just that science hasn't found a way of detecting the differences yet.

I suppose it's a bit like colour blindness; only the person affected knows they have it. They don't know that the way they detect colour is different from other people, all they know is that other people describe things in a different way to the way they see them. Tests have been developed, to detect colour blindness, and I'm sure in time, tests will be developed to detect "lady brain", if, in fact, it exists.

However, where I peak-trans is when those people who believe they have a "lady-brain" expect society to change in order to accommodate them, at the expense of the majority. People suffering from colour blindness don't expect all artists to avoid certain colours in their work, or restaurants to serve dishes that maximise the visual enjoyment of colour blind customers. A colour blind person can expect reasonable adjustments to be made at their workplace - but society has not altered to ensure that colour blind people have the same experience as everyone else.

Well she mighy have a secind job in the parlour down the road doing boy bits. If i'd said it would have been someone would have jumped on me for that too. The point is it of course she shouldn't have to do something she doesn't want to let alone not qualified for. And Karen either should have checked imo if they xould lrovide the services she wantes

It's not just about "doing something you don't want" it's having a cock flashed at you that you weren't expecting, and then having your perfectly natural reaction of shock judged as terrible and bigoted. There is no way this chancer should have got a penny in compensation.

I guess with a colour blind analogy, it's not so much being blind as knowing whether people see the same 'blue' you see, and don't in fact see 'red'. If the gendered brain had something 'missing' it would be easier to detect, but TP are just claiming that (eg) women see red as blue, men see red as red, yet they are male seeing red as blue. And without being in both brains at the same time, you can't know for certain how another brain interprets something. Iyswim?

Great point Beyond. Yes, the thing I can't get past is that even though trans people may have some similarities in their brain to a brain of a person of the opposite sex, I don't understand why that should mean they are the same as the opposite sex in every possible way. As a trans woman cannot in any way know that they feel like a woman, just that they don't feel like they think a man should feel. So it's not a scientific issue, more of an issue of definition. And I challenge the definition that trans women are women.

i think getting back to the point here its not discrimination the beautician was not trained if you ring and state you are trans i would have the assumption you were post op not pre op especially if you are using an establishment which does not offer the service you are needing

honestly can people just activate their fucking brains for once

But how can a person even say they feel like a 'woman'? What one woman feels like is completely different to anyone else.

If it's wanting to wear dresses and makeup, then there are plenty of woman who are not interested in that. Some may choose traditionally female careers, others may choose differently. Some choose to have children, some have no interest. So which one is the "real" woman?

I don't "get" an obsession with shoes and handbags. Does that mean I'm a man?

I wonder how soon even someone post op would be able to have hot wax applied to and ripped off their 'new' faux-labia without causing damage! I feel that even this would have to be something that only a specialist could do, and not someone who is generally trained to work on 'naturally occurring' IE female labia?

Midnite, that question is a whole thread of its own!

insancerre

I agree with your last post

don't hate trans people. Not at all. But they cannot redefine what something is or isn't and expect everyone to have the same views. I don't care what anyone personally chooses to think about their own body parts, but when it comes to asking someone else to touch them that is a different story. Does the pre op trans woman's belief that her penis is female trump the beauticians belief that it is male? Because it shouldn't.

It absolutely shouldn't I've said that in both post she was completely in the wrong.

But those on here calling her a "fully grown male" clearly have their own agenda it's disgusting. Yes I think she should suffer legal consequences as she flashed that poor beautician. But she is still a she.