to think this is sexual harassment not "an equal opportunities issue"?

[SwissWank]

If I am expecting a vulva and in a private room am met with a penis...

I don't have to touch your penis, surely?

www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/trans-woman-brazilian-wax?utm_term=.wn9yL7dKK#.aoLOxVqZZ

You know you're a woman when you suffer PMT!

OMG. Your're boobs ache, you feel so 'down'
you get aches and pains down below, (in the womb, cervical/vulval area)
You who are women know that feeling,
then it breaks and you think:
''thank god that crazy feeling was down to pmt and I'm not actually turning into a manic depressive'' we've all thought that right
by God, who'd be a woman.....
Only a true woman would know that feeling...

Sorry but it's true.
You Will Never Know.

But, I've used the correct pronouns?
It's all discussion at the end of the day.

I don't care about how many transwomen you know, motherinferior. I do care that you are somehow representing your viewpoint as somehow more well-informed than the rest of us because you "have trans friends".

Ah, fuckingdosomething, how wrong you are, according to growing trans orthodoxy:

www.theestablishment.co/2016/05/31/yes-trans-women-can-get-period-symptoms/

I wasn't, seriously I wasn't, trying to represent it as more informed.
I was trying to explain the reasons for disagreeing with said official line. But I should never have bloody started in the first place, clearly.

I'm not more informed. But I can't tell my friends they are men not women. Or rather men not transwomen. That's all.

Bullshit.
If you've lived most of your life as a male and enjoying male privilege,
you cant suddenly purport to 'know' what it's like to be female.

It's laughable.

A couple of artificial mare's piss hormones does not a woman make.

(I'm more biased, certainly. And that bias is arguably a Bad Thing, given that it means I am letting other issues influence my views.)

Yeah.
Artificial female hormones are made from horse mare's piss.
Nice little fact for you there.

Surely a "Brazilian" by its definition requires a vulva?

Holy moley! Women can't even call menstruation their own anymore.

Good grief.

HermioneWeasley It's not male if it isn't on a male. I would describe it as exactly what it is. A penis and a scrotum. And if it is "male" it's not very appropriate to say that to the woman herself.

Although I think she's in the wrong anyway and publicity hunting.

I also think Mumsnet should lock or remove this because some people are saying awful things that could cause serious distress to the trans members of this community

I completely agree that Karen identifies as a woman and has every right to live as a woman. When she called up to make the booking and stated she was trans someone should have clarified she was post op but possibly assumed as (surely?) you need female genatalia for a brazilian that she must be.
She walked in (got naked) and was told they couldn't provide the services she requested. A reasonable explanation was given. They pysically couldn't do it.
It's annoying - a free waxing of anything else as a good well gesture fine but i don't get hoe she's basicallly suing them for a) miscommunication b) not actually providing what she wanted - not just refusing her but actually we can't do it.

And why is there such a strong MN attitude against trans? Surely we're all free to live our lives how we want if it doesn't cause harm?

I'm not more informed. But I can't tell my friends they are men not women. Or rather men not transwomen. That's all

I'm not asking you to. Are your trans friends willing to accept that a female beautician who is only trained in and has experience of waxing the pubic hair growing in the vicinity of a vulva is entitled to refuse to was the pubic hair growing in the vicinity of a penis and scrotum? And to refuse to touch the penis and testicles?

Not being familiar with beauty salons, I thought they just did all kinds of waxing, arms, vulvae, chins, scrota etc

I expect some do, some don't. I don't use them but I know one salon who definitely does not offer massages or waxing to men. Some barbers don't take female clients

Surely we're all free to live our lives how we want if it doesn't cause harm?

And does that freedom extend to a female beautician refusing to handle a penis and testicles if she doesn't want to?

There's no mumsnet 'against trans' - instead there's a (lovely) feminist perspective against a very small abusive, manipulative trans portion of a community who want to demean women.

There's a very small number of trans people who want to demean females and make their 'male' perspective more important than natural females.

I don't think MN is anti trans, it just seems to be opposed to the sort of cognitive dissonance that some elements of the current trans movement seem to require. Alongside that runs the issues about dangers to women

And I'm afraid a penis is a male sex organ. Whoever it is attached to and however they identify it is a male sex organ.

lass i clearly stated the olace didn't do the procedure, end of. I actually feel sorry for the beautician who could be vulnerable and for whom it could have been a huge trigger

and for whom it could have been a huge trigger

Oh that's generous of you. "Could have been a trigger".

I have never been raped or assaulted yet the only penises I want to see are those which are entirely expected and with which I expect to engage to the mutual satisfaction of its owner and myself.

I hate how these threads about the action of one trans person turn into a two minutes hate for trans people in general. It's so depressing.