to think this is sexual harassment not "an equal opportunities issue"?

[SwissWank]

If I am expecting a vulva and in a private room am met with a penis...

I don't have to touch your penis, surely?

www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/trans-woman-brazilian-wax?utm_term=.wn9yL7dKK#.aoLOxVqZZ

This has got transactivitism written all over it.

Or trabsactivism, even.

Glad the settlement offer was withdrawn. Painting the salon as being unkind and discriminatory is outrageous - they were set up.

Luckily, most of the rest of us are able to differentiate between sex and gender. And can be sensible about the services we seek and offer when either of those things are pertinent.

While we're at it, where do we draw the line with micropenises and megaloclitorises? The latter is often bigger (when erect) than the former. Especially when being 'felt up'

Well that's easy - you can't wee or ejaculate from a clitoris, no matter how big.

the story of a transwoman turning up for a smear test and getting angry when the nurse won't mime carrying one out.

Please tell me this didn't really happen.
A person would have to be mentally ill to think they need a smear test when they don't have a cervix but do have penis and testicles.

While we're at it, where do we draw the line with micropenises and megaloclitorises? The latter is often bigger (when erect) than the former. Especially when being 'felt up'
Well that's easy - you can't wee or ejaculate from a clitoris, no matter how big.
And it doesn't have a big pair of male hairy balls attached.

A clitoris, no matter how big is still a clitoris. Female.
A penis, no matter how small is still a penis. Male.

Bartholins a megaloclitoris wouldn't have an accompanying scrotum, which is where the waxing problem lies. It's much thinner skin than labia.

Penises and Vulvas of any size look very different.

Another reason why Karen should have described what she meant by transgender when it came to her genitals is because of scar tissue. If she had been a post op transsexual then she would have wanted to tell them so they could be careful of waxing the scar tissue.

It seems obvious to me that if you want intimate care of any kind you need to describe what you've got going on with the parts that need intimate care.

When people with disabilities arrange personal care they describe exactly what they need - this needs to happen with the transgender community instead of (a small vocal minority) insisting their parts are female when they have male sexual organs.

Gender is a societal construct, sex is biology. We need to describe biology and not 'what we believe in our heads' when we need services for intimate care.

There is no possible way the salon could have come out OK in this scenario.

If they ask about genital configuration on the phone when the booking is made, then they will be under fire, just as they are now.

If they refuse to do a procedure they are not trained for, as they did, then they will be under fire, just as they are now.

If they perform a procedure they are not trained for, and inevitably mess it up (as they are not trained for it ) they will be under fire, just as they are now.

I don't understand how Karen got compensation, because the salon treats other transgender people all the time, they say. So she wasn't discriminated against for being transgender, but treated approriately for having a penis.

Every trans thread on here and other places I've read online say it's rude to ask what's in a transwoman pants, that it's transphobic because someone is female if they say they are female, and what's in between their legs is irrelevant.

If the salon said they don't perform brazillians on trans women they'd be called transphobic and bigoted.
If they asked Karen (and every transwoman) if they had a penis they'd be called transphobic and bigoted.
The salon assumed that as they say on their websites etc that they do not wax males that someone with make gentialia would be trying to book in for a female genitalia treatment, that's not unreasonable.

Karen should have made her pre OP status clear, if talking about her genitals is hard for her to do and triggering then maybe a treatment where Karen needs to show her genitals to a stranger isn't a wise choice as she's going to be hurt by either being asked if she has a penis, or when the therapist is shocked at an unexpected cock.

And now the therapist is transphobic and bigoted because they called a penis male genitalia.

It sounds like Karen set the salon up to fail, they don't seem to find it difficult to mention they have a penis to the press so I'm not sure I buy the idea that she was to embarrassed or didn't have confidence to tell staff she had a penis.

Karens feelings have been given a lot of attention but knows the therapists past, there's loads of valid reasons why seeing an unexpected penis could make her shocked and even scared, she shouldn't be forced to touch a penis if she doesn't want to, it's not a requirement of her job, doesn't make her transphobic.

The salon have done nothing wrong at all.

I don't believe the story of the transwoman requesting a cervical smear, sorry. Not till someone shows me hard evidence. There are quite specific health issues that trans people face - I'm just about to do another feature on this - but they're more about stuff going wrong with bits of their bodies from which they feel profoundly alienated and therefore for which they do not undergo routine checks.

But then I have trans friends, including a couple of pretty prominent trans activists. So I differ from the prevailing MN official feminist line on these issues ( in fact I only dare express my views because I've been on this site so long).

nobody knows

Karen should have made her pre OP status clear, if talking about her genitals is hard for her to do and triggering then maybe a treatment where Karen needs to show her genitals to a stranger isn't a wise choice as she's going to be hurt by either being asked if she has a penis, or when the therapist is shocked at an unexpected cock.

It's obvious - the whole reason she did it was because she set out to shock.
Most normal so shoot me I refuse to use the 'word' cis women I know are quite embarrassed at the thought of going for a Brazilian.
It takes guts.
So, the way I look at it, most transwomen wouldn't put themselves in such a potentially embarrasing/triggering situation in the first place.
There was never going to be an ideal outcome.
So why go ahead. Unless your original intention WAS to shock create maximum outrage/coverage/compensation for the trans cause

Sorry Bartholian but I don't understand your comment.

A penis is a penis regardless of size.

A clitoris is a clitoris regardless of size.

This whole story is nuts. I'm sure it's difficult for transpeople but Karen sounds like she's out for compensation and attention. I just hope she's not planning on wearing a Brazilian bikini to go with the wax because then she might have to sue the whole beach.

This whole story is nuts

Snigger. Sorry.

It does seem a bit constructed.

Penis and scrotum are male genitalia.

Dress how you want, call yourself what you want, ask for whatever pronouns you want, but biological sex is a fact.

Females have a vulva, males have a penis.

Biology.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get.

It used to be a crime for a man to expose himself to unsuspecting women. But now, call yourself transgender and you've got a licence to get your cock out where women are only expecting other women, but if she refuses to handle it, you can sue for discrimination!

THis is where saying "woman is a vague feeling" instead of "woman is a biological lived reality" leads us.

And you joined MN to post this, OP?

This is where saying "woman is a vague feeling" instead of "woman is a biological lived reality" leads us.

Yes. Totally. So I'm not pandering to it where I can avoid it. Gaslighting is abusive behaviour and I am a survivor of an abusive relationship and if I hadn't come to the conclusion that the whole concept of trigger words is incredibly dangerous, misused and meaningless because it leads to situations like this, then I would say yes, that I do find it triggering and upsetting on a personal level for my rights, boundaries and concerns as a woman to be dismissed in this way and thrown over for a tiny minority of male people and I don't feel particularly comfortable with or sympathetic to people who do this.

But then I have trans friends, including a couple of pretty prominent trans activists

So what, motherinferior? You aren't the only MNer who knows trans people. Perhaps if you knew more, you wouldn't be surprised that some trans women agree with a lot of us here, and are happy to live their lives without having to push themselves into sex-segregated spaces. These trans women get a ton of really nasty abuse for respecting women - including from some prominent trans activists.

I don't think it's sexual harassment but I'm tired of being told that being a woman doesn't have anything to do with genitalia/chromosomes and is all just 'feelings'.

I don't have a problem with a person feeling like a woman if that's what they feel they are. I do have a problem with that person telling everyone else that it's somehow offensive to say that their penis isn't male genitalia because they 'feel' like a woman. It's OK to have a personal belief for yourself about yourself, not OK to impose your beliefs on others and expect everyone to redefine man and woman because of something you feel like.

I similarly don't like it when people say we should all use gender neutral pronouns as a default. I want to be referred to as she/her Etc and I would find it as offensive to be called they/them as a trans woman would to be called he/him.

I don't know why we can't treat everyone with respect and accept that people are different from each other instead of having groups of people trying to make everyone change their views because they don't like them. It's not offensive to expect a pre op trans women to accept that while she may feel like she is a woman, people will associate her penis as being male.

And what I went on to say was that I differ from the predominant MN view. That's all.

Oh and I wasn't taking issue with the OP but with the report of transwomen requesting smears. Sorry I don't know enough transwomen for you, though.

Sorry I don't know enough transwomen for you, though.

How very disingenuous. It was you who brought that into it.

I'm saying, simply, that I find myself unable to go along with the Official MN Line on trans issues - trans stuff overall, not this specific case - because I have friends who either transitioned long before I met them or after we worked together, and I do not - for a number of reasons - feel that I want to tell them they are men not women. And I do, as I say, realise this isn't a comfortable thing to say on MN. That's all.