to think that "refrigerator mothers" = ones on the ASD spectrum?

[Anna1976]

AIBU to think that people are missing the point?
In today's BBC news article about France's psychoanalytic treatment of autism, there is this little box of explanation:

From the 1950s to the 1970s, autism was frequently attributed to emotional frigidity on the part of the mother. In a 1949 paper, psychiatrist Leo Kanner suggested "parental coldness, obsessiveness, and a mechanical type of attention to material needs only" left children in "refrigerators" and caused them to withdraw and "seek comfort in solitude". Some experts who believe autism is a psychological disorder continue to regard poor parenting as the source of the problem.

Parental coldness, obsessiveness and mechanical attention to material needs, to me, sounds like those parents may have had ASD and been struggling to cope. As someone with Asperger's I completely recognise the feelings that lead to me appearing cold, obsessive and mechanical - and if one thing would induce those feelings reproducibly, it would be enforced societal expectation to have babies and nurture them like a perfect 1950s housewife, when all i wanted to do is get away and have some peace.

AIBU to think that it would be appropriate to acknowledge that ASD is a pervasive developmental disorder, but also that it does have a genetic basis - and thus note that "refrigerator mothers" could (do) actually exist and could benefit from help? If the parents don't get the basis of what they're teaching their kid, it's not going to work well... I think we need both the neurodevelopmental side, and the psychosocial side of the explanation, given that most of the useful strategies in later life are psychosocial ones.

I'm absolutely not saying that it's refrigerator mothers' fault their kids have ASD - I'm saying that it would be important to look at the parents and whether they also need some of the strategies being taught to their kids.

If you read my post, what I'm saying is not that the causal link exists, but the correlative link could exist. The people who made the observations probably were not idiots, but probably interpreted a causal link where there wasn't one.

I've been having some fun recently dealing with my "refrigerator" mother who clearly has ASD. I have it too. I was thinking about how people learn behaviour generally and how one could learn strategies that could improve everyone's situation when thre is something like this running in a family. It got me wondering about whether acknowledging the link could be useful.

I do believe that there are many parents out there with undiagnosed ASD, yes. I know a few. However their behaviour is not typically 'refrigerator' because as you know the spectrum is so wide.

ie the correlation. Not the cause.

In the UK it is interpreted mostly as a neurodevelopmental issue. In France it is apparently interpreted as a psychiatric/psychosocial one. I think the UK is a lot further ahead, but it is noticeable that in the UK the focus is very much on the individual child and the family doesn't get looked at as much - partly because everyone is scared that they might be interpreted as blaming the parenting. i definitely don't think parenting causes ASD but if the parents also have ASD then they are going to find it really really really difficult to intervene and give the kid a "normal" take on how the world fits together.

Glitter, the OP has Aspergers. Did you miss that bit?

What she is saying is that the belief about "refrigerator parents" may come from the fact that the ASD parents are rearing ASD children but without the benefit of any support for their own issues and therefore perhaps they could benefit from the self same support they are seeking for their children.

OP, you wont get a balanced view on this, as the first reply has shown there will be too many people who wont read your OP properly and will just knee-jerk.

Glitter, the OP states she has Asperger's herself, perhaps "fuckwitedness" was a little strong?

in the UK the focus is very much on the individual child and the family doesn't get looked at as much

That's bull, my family background/members were certainly looked at.

I am so thankful im not french/living in france.

eg my (ASD) parents tell me I'm subnormal and wierd and a spaz, because they cling rather rigidly to the terms they learnt as teenagers, because they tend to look straight down one path of interpretation rather than seeing the broader mix of paths. My (entirely neurotypical) sister has some startlingly ASD-type behaviours that she has learnt from our parents.

In that case I'm a 40 stone trucker called Bob.

I've said so so it must be true.

It is offensive to insinuate that discredited and outdated theories could have credence. Particularly when the real causes of ASD are not actually known.

Genetics IS known to be a strong cause, but not the sole cause. Particularly in my family circs, yes it's genetics. Doesn't mean we're 'refrigerator parents' though. I have many friends who suspect they have ASD and their kids are actually diagnosed. I have no objection to that part of the discussion but I do seriously think the whole 'refrigerator' term is highly offensive.

Amberleaf - you may have been lucky. My experience (from within the NHS both as a patient and an employee- though not working in this area) is that parents are involved in commenting on their child, but beyond a few questions in the initial questionnaires being about the parents, everything focuses on the child.

Really all I'm saying is that I'm wondering if the link could actually be one that is worth acknowledging. It would be very hard to acknowledge it without people jumping up and down about it not being the parents' fault, but if we could get past that, it might open up discussions about how one helps entire families.

I have had to wade through early research and modern on different conditions and i have read a lot (now discredited) that blaimed Autism on a lack of attachment and maternal deprivation.

With respect anyone outside of the professional field of dealing with both SN's(in the parents and children) or/and emotional damage are not experienced enough to have these discussions.

OP- you seem to base this on your own experience, which is always going to mislead, without a large unto date research base to back it up.

There are interesting findings of orphans, from very difficult starts (China, Romania etc) that although have had a lack of nurture, don't have ADHD/ASD.

These threads becoming insulting, the other thread had rubbish chatted on it continually as though it was fact.

My son is adopted
I do not have ASD
He does.

You just used the word Spaz
You should leave now.

It is just so bloody offensive and I wish people could just see that.

I have no objection to that part of the discussion but I do seriously think the whole 'refrigerator' term is highly offensive

Yes, Ive thought about it and I agree, the term 'refrigerator mother' is what makes this discussion prickle.

I agree that there is probably a genetic link, I dont agree with the french theory so to use that term inhibits the discussion IMO.

OP are you in the UK?

Glitter, I'm seriously not trying to be offensive here. I was using the term because that's how it is expressed, and I have said several times that i don't believe there is a causal link, just that a correlative one may exist in some places, eg in my family.
I'm saying that it could be important to acknowedge that the parents who were noted as not being "normal" could actually have been in need of help focussed on themselves (as well as help focussed on their child).
Call me a rigid-thinking aspie but I don't think that it's wrong to think that it could be worth acknowledging that parents might need help in some cases?

I must practically be a fucking deep freeze to have three then musn't I?
Fucking hell.

How do you explain your use of spaz

Amberleaf - you may have been lucky. My experience (from within the NHS both as a patient and an employee- though not working in this area) is that parents are involved in commenting on their child, but beyond a few questions in the initial questionnaires being about the parents, everything focuses on the child

Again bull

My experience was typical [from speaking to others parents in my position] I was asked extensive questions about my background/childhood/pregnancy, certainly not 'a few questions'

Sorry to blow your theory.

Was kanner's theory based on observation though, or supposition?

Even if it is based on observation, ( I don't know either way, but for some reason I've always been under the impression that it wasn't) you've also got to take into account a backwards causation...it is very hard to be warm and tactile with a child who reacts negatively to that.

For what it's worth my experience would suggest that the genetics are much more complicated than straightforward inheritance anyway - Ive come across some children with mothers who pretty obviously have undiagnosed ASDs, more with fathers that appear to have, but the biggest groups of parents I've met are those with either both having a couple of minor traits or nothing suggesting ASDs at all.

It's obviously completely anecdotal, but I think the underlying genetics are not as simple as with something obviously inherited.

I managed to raise my son to the age of 10 without realizing he was an the spectrum. It was easy to miss because my Dad was un-diagnosed and my grandfather was highly traited, as I am. My ex-husband most likely had ADHD as have my two other sons. For me NT is not the norm.
Due to some fairly horrid life experiences I've learnt to socialize over the years, so luckily I'm able to help my eldest deal with what he finds difficult, and also have been able to understand my Dad's completely useless parenting, but had my circumstances not happened as they did I dread to think what would have happened as we have never been offered support as a family, only as individuals, and I have never been offered any extra support despite all the support services knowing all of this.

Besides.... having attempted to have an ASD diagnosis made on an adult (not me) I was told that as he is 'coping' with life then they won't bother (he's not, he gets a lot of input to manage).

The resources aren't there.

OP do you have a child with an ASD diagnosis?

FFS.