to think that "refrigerator mothers" = ones on the ASD spectrum?

[Anna1976]

AIBU to think that people are missing the point?
In today's BBC news article about France's psychoanalytic treatment of autism, there is this little box of explanation:

From the 1950s to the 1970s, autism was frequently attributed to emotional frigidity on the part of the mother. In a 1949 paper, psychiatrist Leo Kanner suggested "parental coldness, obsessiveness, and a mechanical type of attention to material needs only" left children in "refrigerators" and caused them to withdraw and "seek comfort in solitude". Some experts who believe autism is a psychological disorder continue to regard poor parenting as the source of the problem.

Parental coldness, obsessiveness and mechanical attention to material needs, to me, sounds like those parents may have had ASD and been struggling to cope. As someone with Asperger's I completely recognise the feelings that lead to me appearing cold, obsessive and mechanical - and if one thing would induce those feelings reproducibly, it would be enforced societal expectation to have babies and nurture them like a perfect 1950s housewife, when all i wanted to do is get away and have some peace.

AIBU to think that it would be appropriate to acknowledge that ASD is a pervasive developmental disorder, but also that it does have a genetic basis - and thus note that "refrigerator mothers" could (do) actually exist and could benefit from help? If the parents don't get the basis of what they're teaching their kid, it's not going to work well... I think we need both the neurodevelopmental side, and the psychosocial side of the explanation, given that most of the useful strategies in later life are psychosocial ones.

I'm absolutely not saying that it's refrigerator mothers' fault their kids have ASD - I'm saying that it would be important to look at the parents and whether they also need some of the strategies being taught to their kids.

Amberleaf - no- but I live in the UK and I have a diagnosis from within the NHS and I work elsewhere in the NHS. My father is starting diagnosis within the Australian health system, as is my niece (whose needs have brought this out into the open in my family, at last). My father is a classic techie aspie, as am I. My father's sister is also fairly classical.

My mother refuses to have anything to do with the idea that diagnosis or being offered strategies for seeing things differently could help her in any way, but is fairly clearly on the spectrum, as was her mother - but both of them show (showed) the behaviours (lack of theory of mind, lack of empathy, systematizing, alexithymia, "abnormal" sensory input) but not the traditional male-brain interests. My mother systematizes gossip, obsesses about how people see her, obsesses over bullying social interactions, is very unself-aware and very, very unhappy.

I was trying to think about how things could be different, and how society could avoid miserable families like mine.

However, given the reactions, hopefully the thread wil be pulled in the morning.

Hang on, have people not realised this theory held sway in Britain from the late 60s to mid 80s?

I had a school friend whose mother was labelled a 'refrigerator'. The popular judgement against her was appalling. I'm supposing she must have had an autistic son, but wasn't aware of that at the time - only the label :(

I don't think there is good reason to believe that an ASD parent requires more support than an NT one

Taking that as read, why does an ASD child need more support than an NT one? Their parent(s) manged didnt they?

amber does it even matter if her dcs have a diagnosis? She could just be talking of experience from herself and her mother

I can see that the theory could have been formed from studying families where the mother eg had aspergers and misinterpreting that as the cause of the child's behaviour (not through hereditary predisposition), but what about all the mothers who were not on the spectrum? What about cases where the father was on the spectrum? The theory doesn't say 'parent' it says 'mother'.

Big lump of Freudian balls.

Anna it's an interesting thread and it would be a shame if it was pulled imo

People don't have to read it if they find it offensive or don't want to take part in your discussion.

This is what chat forums is about, or should be anyway.

I don't see why the OP can't take a discredited theory and revisit it. That happens all the time in science/medical/health issues.

Are about

If a parent with ASD doesn't need more help then a NT parent, then why would a child?

Anna, please don't pull the thread, I think it could be a very interesting discussion.

I didn't know that this was prevailing theory in the UK until the 80s. I do know it still holds some sway in France.

Worra, I keep x posting with you!

We cool?

Wow some people do some wilful misreading on Mn.

Bejeezus exactly. And if the child DOES need help then why the eff doesnt the parent?!

IME as I said before, during assessment family background is looked at a lot.

My dad probably is on the spectrum, I am probably on the spectrum, the paed who diagnosed my son agreed that it was quite probable based on my answers about my own childhood and education/life experience, as we are all adults what can be done? my dad learnt to live with being different, I learnt to live with being me too.

I think once you get to adulthood a diagnosis wont actually do much other than give you a sense of 'yes that all makes sense, I knew I wasnt mad'

I dont know what kind of support you think is available for adults who are without a diagnosis though? From what ive discovered getting a diagnosis as an adult is not easy anyway.

I dont think you should have the thread pulled BTW.

NarkedPuffin (love the name BTW) I was generalizing to "parent" from "mother", which may not be appropriate. I was just trying to say that if the parents don't get the world they're going to have a seriously hard time helping the kid.

SeaHouses - in some ways ASD parents "get" the ASD kid (eg the need for peace, the "independent-mindedness"), but actually in many ways it's the lack of empathy and lack of theory of mind that are the major factors, i.e. they don't "get" other people full stop whether or not those people have ASD or not, so actually it is really hard for the parents to understand that this silly set of strategies for dealing with the world could actually help.

I don't think the OP has DCs, IIRC from a thread of hers a week or so ago.

People have really got the wrong end of the stick here I think, I read the OP as Bitter did.

amber does it even matter if her dcs have a diagnosis? She could just be talking of experience from herself and her mother

Yes because she would then know that family background is looked at extensively! thats why I asked because she said it wasnt bar a few questions-not true.

BF, because an ASD child is learning how to build relationships with an NT world. That is more difficult than it is for the average NT child in an NT world.

An ASD parent is learning how to build a relationship with an ASD child. I don't see that is more difficult than it is for the average NT parent of an ASD child.

Because the parent with ASD will have a harder job than a NT parent helping a dc with ASD build relationships with a NT world

I don't, either.

Amber, children were taken away from "refrigerator" mothers as it was thought they caused their sons' autism. You can imagine how devastating that must have been for families. On top of all that, the mother of my friend was demonised as I'm sure most women in her predicament must have been.

The poor woman - probably an Aspie, already struggling to cope, finding it difficult to express her emotions while having her family ripped apart and people calling her an unfit mother.

Anna's point is relevant because she's highlighting that the mothers were blamed and slandered, whereas they were in fact vulnerable and may have been autistic.

sorry, I meant I don't think you should pull the thread :)
was replying to Amberleaf.

I think that it's a complex issue. Given that it does seem to run in families (the science lags behind the anecdotal on this) it's an area that probably could do with more study.

Hopefully, given the vastly greater awareness of ASD now, and the improvements in diagnosis, we will eventually get to a stage where parents being diagnosed only after their children are is a thing of the past.

I have no idea how much support/help is currently targeted towards parents who are diagnosed as adults, as a byproduct of their seeking help for their child.

btw thankyou to those who have been sympathetic on here. I honestly was not trying to stir up blame or anything, I was trying to see whether it would be more appropriate to acknowledge the obervation that if ASD runs in families then some parents may actually need some help.

If - say as a junior doctor- you'd never heard about ASD in a useful way before, you'd never seen an adult with ASD before and they were in the middle of a crisis, feeling miserable, trying to survive, feeling shut-down and trying to isolate themself from the battering overstimulating world, (i.e. a mother who perhaps hadn't wanted to do what society told her she should do, now with a 4 year old showing "infant psychosis" or whatever it used to be called, struggling to cope), you'd think that they were standoffish, to say the least.

If you didn't investigate any further (in the rather 1950s way that my parents and grandparents would call someone "bitter and twisted and nasty" rather than acknoweldge that that person probably has mental health problems manifesting as paranoia - because mental health problems are taboo whereas bitching about someone isn't), then I can see that you might come up with a psychosocial blame scenario rather than wondering if the parent in question had the same neurodevelopmental issues as the kid you'd been told to diagnose.

I don't know if this is what Kanner did (probably not - I think he was pretty experienced, but also operating at a time when Freud was dominant). But i can see how it caught on, even if people were JUST SO WRONG in their thinking.

Bejeezus, I think that is what the OP is saying, but I'm not convinced by it.

Firstly, I think that relating to the wider world is only one part of what a parent does. A lot of it is providing a loving home life where the child feels secure. There might be some ways that it is easier for an ASD child to feel secure in a home where the norm was for people to have ASD.

Secondly, an ASD parent might have a better idea of what the child needs to know to relate to the world, because they don't take that knowledge for granted and see where the difficulties may lie, because they have been through that process themselves.