to think that "refrigerator mothers" = ones on the ASD spectrum?

[Anna1976]

AIBU to think that people are missing the point?
In today's BBC news article about France's psychoanalytic treatment of autism, there is this little box of explanation:

From the 1950s to the 1970s, autism was frequently attributed to emotional frigidity on the part of the mother. In a 1949 paper, psychiatrist Leo Kanner suggested "parental coldness, obsessiveness, and a mechanical type of attention to material needs only" left children in "refrigerators" and caused them to withdraw and "seek comfort in solitude". Some experts who believe autism is a psychological disorder continue to regard poor parenting as the source of the problem.

Parental coldness, obsessiveness and mechanical attention to material needs, to me, sounds like those parents may have had ASD and been struggling to cope. As someone with Asperger's I completely recognise the feelings that lead to me appearing cold, obsessive and mechanical - and if one thing would induce those feelings reproducibly, it would be enforced societal expectation to have babies and nurture them like a perfect 1950s housewife, when all i wanted to do is get away and have some peace.

AIBU to think that it would be appropriate to acknowledge that ASD is a pervasive developmental disorder, but also that it does have a genetic basis - and thus note that "refrigerator mothers" could (do) actually exist and could benefit from help? If the parents don't get the basis of what they're teaching their kid, it's not going to work well... I think we need both the neurodevelopmental side, and the psychosocial side of the explanation, given that most of the useful strategies in later life are psychosocial ones.

I'm absolutely not saying that it's refrigerator mothers' fault their kids have ASD - I'm saying that it would be important to look at the parents and whether they also need some of the strategies being taught to their kids.

I'm sure noone is denying there is possible genetic link in some cases of ASD. But there's quite a nasty little undercurrent to the OP's theory, that a mother who is stressed and seen negatively by the diagnosing medics or may have traits or even undx'ed AS/HFA is somehow a cause or exacerbating factor to the child's condition, and is somehow an inferior mother . Interesting that no "refrigerator" father theory ever developed, isn't it .

Hmm.

ASD research is my thing, doing an MA atm.

There may be some truth in that some mothers with genetic ASD appear to be cold.

Equally it's a spectrum disorder- there is nobody less cold than my autistic ds3, and I am certainly in no way a cold Mum even though I am pretty certain I have ASD traits myself.

But I am sure that if someone does have personality issues- whether genetic or for otehr reasons- it will impact on their parenting.

The problem here is blame; so many people want to blame ASD on parenting or anything that allows autistic kids to be written off. In these straightened times, politics seems to be the application of blame 9and we see that ehre as much as anywhere) and so there has been a tendency to move away from these matters towards other, more positive and ultimately USEFUL ones.

Also, ASD is a social disorder- what someone sees in a parent with ASD is not a reflection of their home parenting; a parent with an ASD is likely to be competent and warm in a familiar environment and an abusive parent is likely to hide it except in a safe place; without expert knowledge knowing what truly goes on in a relationship is impossible and conjecture harmful.

Anna- I think the empathy point is quite complex, as there is emotional empathy v cognitive empathy. Someone on the spectrum may be kind and caring, but may struggle to read others expressions/tone of voice. Equally someone not on the spectrum may be unkind and uncaring, but v good at "reading" people, and use that to manipulate.

TLP

EXCELLENT point about refridgerator father!

Of course Bettelheim who developed the fridge mum stuff has largely been discredited anyway and it's worth reading up on the man, his hirtory and his qualifications. And how he alledgedly treated his patients.

Ah empathy- my speciality!

Agree to TLp (again)- MP v CE is a huge thing in ASD research atm; it is likely an imbalance that is significant in ASD but for every child with apparently zero empathy you get one that has too much.

this is worth a read; 'Intense World Theory'

Very well put, nameswapper. When attending diagnosis appointments, parents are likely to feel quite a mix of emotions; fear/anger/relief/despair. Which may just affect how they present to the professionals.....

Refrigerator mothers theory has been fully researched and totally debunked. Leo Kanner himself did a full about turn and recanted everything he said in support of the theory. Bruno Bettelheim, the driving force behind the theory, committed suicide when he realised his entire philosophy was based on falsehood.

I get what you're saying.

ASD may be genetic.

If it is genetic, then members of the family may have it - undiagnosed.

If the gene has come from the mother, and she has ASD, the ignorant may see certain behaviours (if present*) and call that 'refrigerator mother' and claim that is why the child has ASD.

When in actual fact, it is simple genetics and what you are seeing is a mother with ASD * and misinterpreting the behaviours and thinking their actions, rather than genes, have 'caused' ASD in the child/ren

Is that what you're saying?

However, as the mother of 2 boys with autism, and having autistic traits myself, and seeing them in many members of my family, I would have to say that I don't see much in the way of 'coldness'. I love my children very much and show it. Very cuddly, very interactive.

So yes - ASD as genetic means that if you see it in the children, it may be present in the mother (or father, or grandparent or uncle or aunt or cousin...)

But no - * ASD mother does not necessarily mean unable to be affectionate and interactive (which is the crux of the whole 'refrigerator mother' theory.

But I do get what you're saying, I think - it's really more like passing on your blue eyes or your brown hair than a style of parenting.

What Kladdkaka says

And for what it's worth my Aspie dh who for good measure also has done a major battle with depression, has at many times been the rock solid warm and stabilising influence in my ds's life. My ptsd, volatility under stress and anxiety have been more of a problem and I score as low on the aspie test as possible. Dh is as far from a refrigerator as one can get. Full of warmth, physical play, safe space, adventures. Ds's favourite places in the world are on daddy's shoulders when on adventures (he's 4 and cannot walk unaided due to a disability) and in the nest formed by dh's crossed legs when tired/scared. DH is the best dad I know and I know a lot of good dads.

Do yourself and others a favour and bury the 'r-word' where no one can find it. Others have fought hard enough to see its disappearance.

JustHecate, yes that is what i'm saying. Nameswapper I agree with you about blame.

Madmouse and Kladdkaka - that is great that you have that warmth - my family life has been dominated by a mix of unempathetic and alexithymic behaviour where people constantly feel threatened and are either withdrawn or aggressive. So it is not totally surprising that I end up thinking about how the r word interpretation originated and whether there is something that could be done about it... whereas other people with different families might see it as plainly blame-apportioning and offensive. I don't think it is a good way of looking at families where the parents have similar difficulties to the kid, but I think that the observation - while un-nuanced and not being seen correctly - could have been picking up distress signals that, if acknowledged and dealt with, might actually have made things easier in the long run.

i really didn't express any of it well and i hope the thread gets pulled - I did ask MN to do it last night.

Hmm, an interesting discussion. As a member of a family with more than its fair share of people with ASD traits I am always interested to read other peoples opinions.

Though not willing to share mine on this board.

Nameswapper - the coldness point i made was just just about some mothers with undiagnosed ASD, not coping at the particular point in time when they are observed - as i said in my first post - I totally understand the factors that might have led some mothers to be trapped in the middle of (not being allowed to have) an aspie meltdown under intense societal pressure - and i think that's where much of my mother's extreme unhappiness comes from.

Not everyone with ASD is cold always, at all, an individual might never appear distant or withdrawn, or only under certain circumstances, or only wiht certain people.

I can distantly remember being about as far from cold as possible as a child, before I had self-awareness increasingly imposed by the outside world.

For me, the key to the question of whether you have children or not lies in your assumption that ASD parents aren't interested in or very good at nurturing. I don't think this is true at all. You mother may not have been good at it but that doesn't have to be due to her ASD.

I'm not talking about all ASD parents. I was talking about some mothers being observed at a particular point in time when they are not coping, saying that the withdrawal that I have observed in myself and others under intense pressure, could be what doctors were observing in mothers, when this silly theory had some currency (but I clearly expressed myself really badly)

In the 1960's mothers were blamed for their child's autism and had their autistic children removed from them (even when other siblings were unaffected). (read annabel stehli for a description of this).

My severely autistic son has two parents who are very very NT (at least scored on Simon baron cohen's scales). I am the most important person in ds1's life, aged 13 he is still very affectionate and is often found sitting on my lap (practically crushes me now). Removing him from me through misguided understandings of autism woukd have been devastating to him (not to mention the rest of the family).

He regressed and whilst I do believe he may have inherited a dysfunctional immune system that meant he later developed autism he did not inherit th behavioural traits from us. (and that seems pretty common in simplex families). Tbh the type of autism (yes it is many things) picked up in refrigerator mother times was more likely to ge of the type ds1 has. BAP running through families wasn't really recognised as autism.

Anna

You expressed yourself perfectly well

and the 'Intense World' theory would support your point

I think people are confusing the original 'refrigerator mother' theory with the points you are making

Birdsgottafly

'With respect anyone outside of the professional field of dealing with both SN's(in the parents and children) or/and emotional damage are not experienced enough to have these discussions.'

What absolute nonsense. Don't forget it was 'professionals' that came up with the refrigerator mother idea, and some 'professionals' in France that still use it.

of course you are not saying this is true for ALL ASD parents- I think you have triggered defensiveness in a lot of parents

And so far I have not met a single publically funded 'professional' that knows more about ASD as applied to my DS as I do.

Or about ASD in general for many of them.

I wonder about it too. My son is not on the ASD, he has been diagnosed as PDD-NOS because of a severe speech delay and some autistic behaviors ( though not enough to put him on the spectrum). His sister is not like this at all. One big difference between the kids is that I had a severe postnatal depression starting about a month after he was born and which lasted until he was about a year. He was cared for and well ( I hope) but I was very much 'going through the motions' at this time. Not because I didn't love him or because I wanted to hurt him or my family, I just was not physically or mentally able to put in more than I was. It was awful. We didn't notice his speech delay until he was about two however ( when he definitely seemed to regress after 18 months).

Anna1976 - i come from a family where outsiders describe us as cold. we are not, we are just less emotional than other people but i dont think that is bad.

i think you are looking at the topic very rationally & other posters are, fair enough, very emotional about this topic. but the difference between your communication styles means that they have read your words differently than what you have typed them.

Oh God. I read the first about thirty messages and couldn't understand a f*cking word of it but that's probably because I have some degree of ASD myself and can rarely see the bigger picture.

So I've got very little idea what you're all talking about.

I suspect my mother has an ASD and she was really cold towards me...well, she says she was. I think she was.
However I'm quite solidly on the spectrum - well, according to the AAA or whatever that test is and I've always been 'weird' but I'm not cold with my children.

I'm very much the other way really, very affectionate, very stroppy sometimes, I tend to swear in front of them and tell them too much about adult issues, sometimes my boundaries are off. But whatever I'm feeling, they know about it and that is good as well as bad. I'm not cold.

I've not heard the refrigerator thing before and I hate terms like that as they seem so thoroughly derogatory towards people who are doing their level best. Who has the right to judge.

I also hate the term 'aspie' fwiw and if someone called me that I'd want to hit them.

anyway, as you were

We are on the road to a diagnosis of ASD for my youngest. I have no doubt we'll get it.

I come from a family where love is expressed openly and physical affection is the meat and potatoes of our daily life. My husband's family are all very socially adept and of the 12 grandchild on DH's side, all have excellent social skills.

I look at my youngest and wonder how much more pronounced his traits would be had he not had two years of attachment style parenting as a baby and toddler, and so much emotional input from our wider family. He's extremely affectionate and can be unusually empathetic with me, despite being completely oblivious to the feelings of everyone else most of the time.

saintlyjimjams - I've recently been reading about the mother's dysfunctional immune system possibly contributing to autism in her children. This caught my eye

?A lot of the symptoms appear to be related to nervous system defects,? Mella said. Fluge said those symptoms suggest some nervous system filter is missing, ?resulting in massive sensory input.?

If I've understood, they think an antibody is damaging a sensory filter in the brain, causing the overwhelming sensory input. So if this is happening to the mother, it would also be happening to the baby inside her?