to think that "refrigerator mothers" = ones on the ASD spectrum?

[Anna1976]

AIBU to think that people are missing the point?
In today's BBC news article about France's psychoanalytic treatment of autism, there is this little box of explanation:

From the 1950s to the 1970s, autism was frequently attributed to emotional frigidity on the part of the mother. In a 1949 paper, psychiatrist Leo Kanner suggested "parental coldness, obsessiveness, and a mechanical type of attention to material needs only" left children in "refrigerators" and caused them to withdraw and "seek comfort in solitude". Some experts who believe autism is a psychological disorder continue to regard poor parenting as the source of the problem.

Parental coldness, obsessiveness and mechanical attention to material needs, to me, sounds like those parents may have had ASD and been struggling to cope. As someone with Asperger's I completely recognise the feelings that lead to me appearing cold, obsessive and mechanical - and if one thing would induce those feelings reproducibly, it would be enforced societal expectation to have babies and nurture them like a perfect 1950s housewife, when all i wanted to do is get away and have some peace.

AIBU to think that it would be appropriate to acknowledge that ASD is a pervasive developmental disorder, but also that it does have a genetic basis - and thus note that "refrigerator mothers" could (do) actually exist and could benefit from help? If the parents don't get the basis of what they're teaching their kid, it's not going to work well... I think we need both the neurodevelopmental side, and the psychosocial side of the explanation, given that most of the useful strategies in later life are psychosocial ones.

I'm absolutely not saying that it's refrigerator mothers' fault their kids have ASD - I'm saying that it would be important to look at the parents and whether they also need some of the strategies being taught to their kids.

Debs is spot on IMO.

I wonder at the wisdom of a post linking ASD and refrigerators being in AIBU where people who.don't know much about ASD will read it and generalise.

CFSKate - Thank you for the link between CFS and autism via sensory filtering! I've been finding that, as I have become more unwell, I am feeling "more autistic". This is unquestionably due to an inability to cope with too much input - only this morning, I was regretfully observing I can't multitask any more! Your pointer that this could actually be true, and there's some research on the topic, couldn't be more timely :)

Everybody else - It's always a little bit odd to hear AS people hotly debating the empathy/TOM aspects of autism. You have different sensory filtering from NT people. It must have occurred to you that this makes your experience of the world very different. You can't be confident that what you have is empathy and/or TOM in the way NT people mean it, because you simply don't experience the 'same' world that NT people do.

I am sure that, in the chiascuro of human perceptions, there are people with a high level of 'autistic' characteristics and well-developed interpersonal communication. But if you find it hard to accurately read the nuances of human expression - the facial and bodily clues, the verbal tones, shades of meaning and subtext - then it's impossible for you to share the NT version of empathy.

That doesn't mean you can't have something equivalent. But I think it does mean you haven't got the same interpersonal capacities and emotional expressiveness as NT folks, which have been named 'empathy', 'theory of mind' and so on.

Instead of arguing that you have what you have not, would it be more constructive to try describing and naming the AS equivalents?
Just a thought.

Glitter, you missed the point of the OP ...

But she wasn't linking it. Quite the opposite.

I don't understand why people are saying she's saying there is even such a THING as a 'refrigerator mother'.

She's quite clearly saying that there isn't.

Glitter OP isnt saying that the mothers/parents are in any way to blame

Jessie My thoughts, too! I'm going for (b).

i meant a post mentioning a link between ASD and refrigerator mothers, whether or not one exists, FWIW hecate

bejeezus we are not confusing anything, OP chose to use that word!

OP said her own parents called her a 'spaz'. Is she not allowed to tell us about it, madmouse? :(

diogenidae

AmberLeaf I'm interest in this "family background/members were certainly looked at"

What do you want to know other than what ive said already?

My sons assessment took two appointments as we spent so long discussing me and my background.

or did you mean 'interested' in the 'I dont believe you' sense?

That doesn't mean you can't have something equivalent. But I think it does mean you haven't got the same interpersonal capacities and emotional expressiveness as NT folks, which have been named 'empathy', 'theory of mind' and so on

^Instead of arguing that you have what you have not, would it be more constructive to try describing and naming the AS equivalents?
Just a thought^

What do you mean? make up new names for things that only apply to those on the spectrum?

Dont know if you meant it to, but that post is incredibly fucking patronising!

Why is it patronising, Amber? The very fact that you say you're on the AS means you believe you perceive things differently from the majority of NTs. Is it patronising to discuss this fact?

You've posted elsewhere that you feel overwhelmed by having to process loads of different subliminal cues, for example on a crowded street. This means you would find it difficult to experience what NTs mean by empathy/TOM/etc.

You probably experience something else instead. I wouldn't know what that is, because I'm not on the autistic end of the spectrum. I find it odd that you insist you know what I experience.

If you agree with my point here, the argument is all about a word. Which is why I thought of proposing a search for different words.

OP has Aspergers--she is discussing thoughts she has had around her own experiences and those of her family members who also have ASD

She should have a space to be able to discuss it openly and honestly

she is not accussing anyone of any thing, she is not patronising or insulting

Imagine if one of your children wanted to discuss their thoughts about their own difficulties and explore extrapolations and theories.....

I find it odd that you insist you know what I experience

Likewise.

Calling people "thickos" while complaining about people being rude is a wee bit hypocritical

Anna you said that there are some families where the kids are on the spectrum and the parents show traits (often called broader autism phenotype in papers). Absolutely. But those families tend to be pretty high functioning (the kids I mean) and so aren't necessarily the families that would have been noticed at the time of the refrigerator mother nonsense.

CFSKate - there's quite a lot about (for example) viruses in pregnancy setting off immune reactions in the developing fetus that can lead to autism. Certainly I think inflammatory responses are often involved in autism (and probably in CFS as well?) I'm not so sure about the sensory input stuff - in ds1's case he is avery sensory seeking so loves loud noises, deep pressure, etc (and really is too 'damaged' for want of a better word for his problems to be explained purely by sensory processing differences.

QED, Amber, though I'd be surprised if you saw it that way.

Hiding thread now, as per usual in these discussions. Big thanks to everyone who's opened up new lines of enquiry :)

That doesn't mean you can't have something equivalent. But I think it does mean you haven't got the same interpersonal capacities and emotional expressiveness as NT folks, which have been named 'empathy', 'theory of mind' and so on

I don't know. I work with people at the severe end of the spectrum. Many show abilities far in advance of ones they're 'supposed' to have (they can tease for example, which supposedly you need some TOM to achieve - you can't test their understanding of false belief tasks as they have no language to test, but that doesn't mean an understanding of other minds doesn't exist. It's what I call the vegetable assumptions of this group (i.e. we assume those with severe autism are vegetables - rather than making any effort ourselves to understand their means of expression). Often I think the expression of empathy etc by this group is completely misunderstood by NT's. People with severe autism often have very limited control over their own bodies. If those of us who are NT choose to assume that their actions represent something internal then we're the ones making huge assumptions and failing to understand those with ASD. In my opinion.

Lucy Blackman is a superb read on this subject. Lucy's Story for example is a fantastic insight into the world of severe, non-verbal autism. She talks a lot about not having control over her body.

saintly-i am going to order that book straight away, thanks :)

Neuro described my DD as a "very bright little girl who has real trouble making her body do what she wants it to do"

It's a brilliant book - she does an update in Autism and the myth of the person alone as well.

It completely changed my understanding of ds1 (who is actually really like her and handily seems to be following her developmental pathway - I re-read it every couple of years to re-educate myself if that makes sense).

Yes, thanks for telling me about it :)