to think that "refrigerator mothers" = ones on the ASD spectrum?

[Anna1976]

AIBU to think that people are missing the point?
In today's BBC news article about France's psychoanalytic treatment of autism, there is this little box of explanation:

From the 1950s to the 1970s, autism was frequently attributed to emotional frigidity on the part of the mother. In a 1949 paper, psychiatrist Leo Kanner suggested "parental coldness, obsessiveness, and a mechanical type of attention to material needs only" left children in "refrigerators" and caused them to withdraw and "seek comfort in solitude". Some experts who believe autism is a psychological disorder continue to regard poor parenting as the source of the problem.

Parental coldness, obsessiveness and mechanical attention to material needs, to me, sounds like those parents may have had ASD and been struggling to cope. As someone with Asperger's I completely recognise the feelings that lead to me appearing cold, obsessive and mechanical - and if one thing would induce those feelings reproducibly, it would be enforced societal expectation to have babies and nurture them like a perfect 1950s housewife, when all i wanted to do is get away and have some peace.

AIBU to think that it would be appropriate to acknowledge that ASD is a pervasive developmental disorder, but also that it does have a genetic basis - and thus note that "refrigerator mothers" could (do) actually exist and could benefit from help? If the parents don't get the basis of what they're teaching their kid, it's not going to work well... I think we need both the neurodevelopmental side, and the psychosocial side of the explanation, given that most of the useful strategies in later life are psychosocial ones.

I'm absolutely not saying that it's refrigerator mothers' fault their kids have ASD - I'm saying that it would be important to look at the parents and whether they also need some of the strategies being taught to their kids.

Because the parent with ASD will have a harder job than a NT parent helping a dc with ASD build relationships with a NT world

I think I disagree with that, I think a parent with ASD can have an advantage over a NT parent on helping a child with ASD get on in a NT world actually.

Obviously that wuld depend on where on the spectrum they are but I think 'getting it' can be a definite advantage. I think a parent with ASD will 'get it' much easier than a NT one on some issues.

Seahouses said it better than me!

Another issue is surely that children diagnosed as Autistic in the 1950s would have had classic autism, while we are speculating the mothers perhaps had aspergers. But then we seem to be discussing (from what I can tell) how mothers with aspergers should teach children with aspergers certain 'psycho social' skills, but that seems a bit irrelevant as surely that is very different to the help that would be given to a child with classic autism in the 1950s.

But Seahouses - i do take the points you're making - but to think about how your child relates to the world, you'd agree you need some empathy and theory of mind, yes?

So while my mother (for example) can sort of relate to me over some things, she doesn't actually "grok" ("get") me or my motivations because she isn't applying any theory of mind or empathy.

What is interesting is that my (highly intellectual) father - having had this stuff explained to him recently by people whose intellects he respects - is learning to systematically, consciously try to apply theory of mind and a (rather intellectualized version of) empathy. He is suddenly inderstanding a lot more about other people in a "solid" way, as opposed to a "every explanation is as good as every other, i"ll interpret it this way and my interpretation is as good as yours" way, which he used to use.

If the parent was not diagnosed, would there be that self awareness/insight? I can see what you mean if the parent knows they are on the spectrum, but what if they dont? I think that is what OP is saying

I wonder if someone - without sufficient understanding of autism - might see any mother parenting their autistic child as 'cold', if you're measuring them against how a mother might parent a child that isn't ASD.

If you don't understand that eg child A doesn't like to be hugged/stroked then you might regard it as odd/unloving that their mother doesn't comfort them like this when they fall over. If you don't understand that child G hates to be uninterrupted when playing with his toy car and has a melt down, you might regard his mother as inattentive for not joining in.

I don't know Anna. I think we're all just speculating or basing it on our own experiences. A poster on another thread a while back was saying that diagnosis was changing and that people with ASD do have theory of mind. I don't think it is the case that people with ASD have no empathy and no way of working out the feelings of others.

Amberleaf - a parent with aspergers can definitely "get it" over some things, but would you agree that they're going to struggle with other things unless they have received a certain amount of help/understanding already?

The distinction between Kanner's young patients with autism and mothers with aspergers is completely correct and I should have made it, so many thanks for pointing out that it should have been made Seahouses.

I think i am probably talking more about families with aspergers - I don't know enough to generalize from my epxerience of families where there are numerous people with aspie traits and then one or two with what seems more like autism (ie learning and speech delays etc)

ASD does not = n0 empathy or theory of mind.

I'm rambling a bit, but an ASD mother would teach her child not to run into the road, right? For the mother to know to teach her child that, she has to have theory of mind. She has to know that her child does not know that it is dangerous to run into a road, and that the child would have to be taught that.

So then the same principle would hold true for certain social skills. The ASD mother would know that her child would need to be taught those skills. The NT mother might not realise that for quite some time, because she would assume that certain social skills were innate, until her child was diagnosed and she found out they needed to be taught.

SeaHouses - I agree that theory of mind and empathy aren't fixed in stone as "not there" in anyone who has any ASD. For example my father really really lacked/lacks empathy but had some glimmers of theory of mind; my mother has some occasional glimmers of empathy but they get swamped by the absent theory of mind, alexithymia, etc etc.

These are just descriptive categories - i'm assuming people don't think they're "real" - it may be the case that more nuanced descriptions with terms intermediate between empathy and theory of mind could actually be more useful in the long run.

Amberleaf - a parent with aspergers can definitely "get it" over some things, but would you agree that they're going to struggle with other things unless they have received a certain amount of help/understanding already?

I dont know really, but my dad didnt recieve any help [unless you count the cane or headmasters slipper?!] he didnt do badly with me! he helped me be 'me' a llot actually, he helped me feel comfortable with being a bit different.

Speaking from my view as a parent, well I dont think my son is lacking and I do my best, his paed said that I have a very good understanding of his needs so I think im doing ok.

My other tow children are doing well too.

Amberleaf, agreed it doesn't equal none, but it is often expressed as "has difficulty with" these things. My family has major difficulty with these things (and resultant social difficulty), whereas another family with multiple "aspies" might be much more occupied by sensory issues.

Amberleaf that sounds great and totally fine - I am glad things are going well for you - as per the previous post - some families have more difficulty than others with particular things.

And obviously one isn't dealing with ASD in isolation - my family being quite negative and unreceptive to the outside world may actually have far, far more effect on their social difficulties than the specific neurodevelopmental bits that could be put down to ASD, and of course it can be pretty hard to separate these things out - which is what I was referring to when I mentioned my sister having some traits that look quite like an "aspie" take on the world but - as far as i can tell from trying to discuss it with her and her husband - are actually learnt behaviours because that's what she picked up from my parents and grandmother.

I suppose that we all learn what's 'normal' from our family. Whether that's parental roles, acceptable behaviour at the dinner table, how to handle disagreements etc etc Parents who are on the spectrum and undiagnosed not view things the same way as parents who aren't on the spectrum or those who are aware that they're on it.

But people aren't clones. My parents aren't on the spectrum and neither are my ILS. They are incredibly different. They were totally different as parents. As were their parents.

you're totally right NP - one of my particular "things" is viewing people as clones - trying to systematize them into discrete bins so i can work out the distribution... which probably results in me oversimplifying arguments and pissing people off as per the beginning of this thread.

Interesting what NarkedPuffin says about how we learn 'normal'

My families way of living works for us as a whole, im sure that most NT people if they observed 'fly on the wall' in my house would definitely not find it 'normal' at all.

I think I fin it easier to be relaxed about certain things comepared to other parents I know/know of who also have children on the spectrum.

Im not as bothered by the things that they seem to be, I am happy to let my son just be himself.

I am saddened by stories of parents who dont seem able to accept their childs ways.

Yep. I once asked if we could have a family dinner where everyone brought a book to the table. NT sister and NT paternal grandmother interpreted this as we would have readings of things over dinner. Aspie everyone else interpreted it as we would all sit in silence and read our own things and not bother anyone else. Two very different normals.

What is quite funny is that someone I went to school with apparently asked for exactly the same thing once. Maybe it's normal for aspies to like reading at dinner? (and indeed probably a lot of non aspies whose books are more interesting than family conversation over dinner). Her family is a lot "wierder" and more unhappy than mine - lots of undiagnosed ASD, misery and blame going on there.... a family who definitely could benefit from extra parental help.

I think that is part of the issue - trying to define what is 'normal.' A lot of people who do not have ASD will still not be 'normal.' There are families where multiple people will have depression or anxiety or an OCD. I don't think I know many people who are stereotypically normal.

It seems to me that a lot of the reason why more children are diagnosed with ASD is because the requirements of society in terms of what is 'normal' have now changed. The classroom has changed and is much more interactive and based on group work, so children who want to read in social situations or get on with their own work and follow strict classroom routines are now seen as problematic when in the past that wouldn't have been as much of an issue.

btw Amber - my comments about "my peer group" and diagnosis - "my peer group" was people being diagnosed at various stages from childhood through to early 20s (I was diagnosed much later than these peers after eventually realising I had many of the same issues as they did), however, I should have acknowledged that their diagnoses happened in the 90s and early-mid 00s and things have moved on quite considerably in many places since the 90s. So my experience was typical of my peer group at the time and this is probably no longer typical - sorry about that...

argh. What i am trying to say is that my adult diagnosis was a similar process to what my peers had in childhood/teenage diagnoses. i think i should go to bed, i clearly can't express myself properly tonight

I cannot for the life of my see why the OP is being hounded from the thread?

Mrs deVere, it is abundantly clear that the OP is saying she was herself called a spaz by her parents.

Why can't we have this discussion? And for the record I come from a long line of Aspies so yes, this affects close family members of mine.

Very interesting posts op, hope you don't have this thread removed.

I am finding your thread very interesting & insightful OP. ignore the reactionaries. My son has aspergers & when we went for a recent assessment my husband commented that 'he doesn't like eye contact, like his mother'. I was livid, not because it wasn't true but somehow I thought he hadn't noticed my aspergic traits & I didn't want the paed to write it on his notes which obviously she did. Your thread got me thinking about my own parents who are clearly on the ASD spectrum ( lack of empathy, Poor social skills, lack of affection etc).
Thankyou OP. You have made me think about some family issues that need to be looked into further.
I also work with ASD children & like many in my profession we are somehow drawn to working in SEN but can't explain why. As time goes on I realise we have empathy with them from our own experiences & understand their traits better because we have them ourselves yet often undiagnosed. Makes you think!