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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not think my daughter should be made to use a changing room..

435 replies

hairnets · 04/12/2011 22:34

When getting changed after swimming with her Dad?

He told me today that she received a telling off ("major roasting" were his words) for refusing to use her own changing room after he took her swimming. He felt that it wasn't appropriate for her to get changed out in the open because there were other men about in the room.

She's 5.

I obviously think he's BU and I know exactly why I do but interested in what others think before I bang on about why he's BU - If that makes any sense!!

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 06/12/2011 12:00

Yes, that's how I feel about it SDTG. Likewise with the changing - the issue is not really whether a five year old should be naked in a public changing room, it's how the dad dealt with the issue. I can TBH understand why the OP is concerned by the way he acts, even before I think about whether I agree with her stances on appropriate ages to be naked in a changing room or the reading of Zoo/Nuts. I do happen to agree with her on those counts but I don't think that is why I can understand her feelings about her DD's dad.

squeakytoy · 06/12/2011 12:13

OP has also said he is a very good dad in many ways though.

I tend to give the benefit of doubt to people when you only hear one side of an argument. He could be a twat, but equally it is possible that the OP was scathing to him too... none of us were in that room, so we dont know what really happened.

Simply going back to the main point of this thread, I dont think the father was in the wrong, to insist his daughter go into a cubicle in the male changing room. Whatever his reasons for it. And I do personally think that the OP is reacting in the way she has because of her stance on the "objectification of women" which she is dragging into it, because the incident has room for a bit of feminist propaganda to be included.

I spoke to my DIL about this, and how she would feel if my stepson had taken his daughter into the mens changing room, and her view was that she would prefer her daughter to be in a private cubicle, not in a room full of naked men who she does not know.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 06/12/2011 12:24

If hairnets was scathing to her ex about Nuts magazine et al being left where her dd could see them, I would consider that to be perfectly reasonable, squeakytoy. Regardless of whether these magazines are or are not porn, we are surely agreed that they are definitely NOT suitable reading matter for a 5 year old, and the ex should have made sure they weren't left where she could see them and, when told they were in her reach, should have apologised and moved them - not got nasty about it. I honestly can't see how you can give someone the benefit of that much doubt.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 06/12/2011 12:28

Going back to the original issue, I have asked my dh and ds1 (who's 18) how they'd feel if a little girl was getting changed in the mens changing room whilst they were getting changed too, and both of them said that they'd be very uncomfortable.

And as hairnets admitted further up the thread, her dh is the sort of man who'd have a go at another man who he thought was looking at his dd 'the wrong way', and it would be pretty horrible for an innocent bloke to be accused of 'perving' on a little girl. So I do think that the op's ex was right to want his dd to change in a cubicle, or at least, privately in some way, but was wrong to have got so angry with her when he knows about, and shares her claustrophobia.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 06/12/2011 12:29

It doesn't sound like 'benefit of the doubt', TBH. So you and your DIL both have the same views. So what? The OP doesn't. Her ex, who's already demonstrated he has a fairly nasty attitude towards women and towards what his DD gets to see or not see by way of naked women, agrees with you. I know which one sounds like better parenting.

squeakytoy · 06/12/2011 12:30

Yes I agree, and have said they are not suitable.. but there are at least two possible scenarios...

"you, you fucking stupid wanker, you left those fucking mags in the fucking bathroom"

or

"look, please could you not leave those magazines in the bathroom where DD might see them, thanks"

We have absolutely no idea which approach the OP took on the subject, but if someone goes straight onto the offensive then chances are they will get a gobful back.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 06/12/2011 12:31

Tbh, if my 5 year old had found mags like that, I would have been hard pressed not to explode.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie · 06/12/2011 12:32

and of course, we must always excuse male aggression, shouldn't we ?

LondonMumsie · 06/12/2011 12:50

No cubicles at our gym so DS and DD are in the women's open area when with me, and they are both in the men's open area when with their dad. I did ask were there any cubicles when I did the tour and was told we could go as a family into the (only) disabled changing room. What say the Mumsnet jury to that?

Wamster · 06/12/2011 12:58

If he'd left a copy of 'Hustler' or 'Men Only' hanging about then the opening poster would be right to explode but Zoo or Nuts? Hardly pornographic, are they? Women in bikinis. Big deal. That's about as pornographic these things get. I think some people here are being way too precious.

Wamster · 06/12/2011 12:59

Crikey, anybody would be reasonable to explode at truly pornographic material.

Original poster
hairnets · 06/12/2011 13:16

Damn having to work!! Wamster - you are missing a fundamental point (in fact i can't understand if you are missing it or just disagree with it) It is not about the degree of nakedness in these magazines. It is not about nakedness at all. It is about the teeny tiny messages that little girls are receiving:
*Go in to the changing room because if you get your naked body out here these men may not be able to stop themselves from looking at it.
*Daddy buys magazines that celebrate women only for the size of their breasts. In fact, if you don't have a tiny waist and huge breasts you won't be allowed to pose in magazines.
*You feel scared about going in to a small cubicle, I feel the same so I won't go in - but you have to because otherwise me and these other men may feel uncomfortable about your nakedness and we are more important.

When I asked him about the magazines it went along the lines of
"I know you don't agree with me but I think the images and headlines in those magazines are damaging to DD, can you keep them in your room?"

"Stop being so dramatic, it's not like she reads them"
"No, but seeing them lying about means she will be absorbing them subconciously which is probably worse"
"Oh for fuck sake I suppose when she's older you'll be dragging her along to your lezzer marches will you?"
"I'd rather you didn't call me a lezzer in front of DD"
"You're in my house!"
"okay, bye now!"

So no, I don't see much point in arguing about the changing room. He brought it up again last night by the way and asked if I had also told DD off about it! I said no and so he accussed me of undermining him. I told him I wasn't undermining, I just wasn't reinforcing his arguement. I told him I doubted that DD grasped why the men might be looking at her naked so that is probably why she was "being naughty"

OP posts:
Original poster
hairnets · 06/12/2011 13:18

Ooh Londonmumsie, that's a bout 3 threads in one Xmas Wink

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 06/12/2011 13:30

Of course any decent parent would explode at finding their child exposed to porn.

The fact it was softcore not hardcore is a blessing but hardly reason for the OP to restrain her very natural concern for her DD.

Which is more important here - that this bloke has a good wank whenever he feels like it without having to get his magazine out from its hiding place, or his daughter gets to grow up without seeing images like the one AF linked to?

squeakytoy · 06/12/2011 13:34

Do men really have a wank to those magazines? That is about as akin to saying that women have a wank to Womens Weekly and their photos of Daniel Craig and his "six pack".. Hmm

Or perhaps some women do....

LRDtheFeministDragon · 06/12/2011 13:36

No, squeaky, it's not.

Have you never read a woman's magazine? Go read one them compare it to what AF linked to.

It's bollocks to pretend they are the same.

That said, if some women do wank of Daniel Craig's abs in a picture, why do you feel teh need to insist this makes a man have perfect right to let his five year old see porn? I don't see the link myself. Wanking is not actually a basic human right, you know.

Wamster · 06/12/2011 13:37

On point One, I must say that you must occupy a different planet to me.
Honestly, I think your ex is misguided-there were probably no perverts in that room, however, if he did so out of a desire to protect his daughter, then I can't slag the guy off for wanting to keep her safe.

Sadly, there are monsters out there who like to look at young children's bodies, an adult wishing to protect them from that has f* all with modesty or making it out that it is somehow the 'fault' of the child if these pervs look at them. Hmm
Like I said earlier, sadly women get victim-blamed for rape even by seemingly reasonable people. In all my years on this planet, I have yet to hear a child getting blamed for any abuse it has suffered. Children have no modesty when young-that's why it is the job of adults to protect them from other sick adults who they think may be lurking in the area.
Yet you are making this into a feminist issue. Confused Ridiculous.
Your ex was wrong to behave the way he did, you need to talk to the guy about how you understand how he wishes to protect his daughter but take a more balanced approach to things.
Try to educate him on the subject.

I suspect the reason he gets frustrated with you is because in his eyes liking looking at women's bodies has got nothing to do with his ability as a father. (He probably does keep the magazines that are truly pornographic out of sight, by the way). And for that, I agree with him.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 06/12/2011 13:38

(Btw, not sure what you imagine two naked women rubbing themselves against each other on the cover of a men's magazine is intended for if not sexual stimulation ... I think you are a wee bit naive if you think men buy this stuff because they have deep intellectual curiosity about the 'reading'' matter!)

Original poster
hairnets · 06/12/2011 13:41

Wamster - are you aware that 5 year old girls will be women one day and that what they expereince as children will affect the way they see themselves?

OP posts:
Original poster
hairnets · 06/12/2011 13:44

I agree LRD. He saves the ones with particularly good wank fodder inside.

On the contrary to it not affecting his parenting - I beleive that a man needs to have the utmost respect for women in order to be a strong role model for his daughter.

Although as Ihave said he is a good dad in many ways, if this wasn't the case then i would have fought for her not to be with him. as it is, there is no neglect or abuse and he is in many ways a good guy. But that doesn't mean I am happy with his casual misogynism.

OP posts:
mumeeee · 06/12/2011 13:46

As it was a cubicle in the Mens changing room your DH was not BU,

RosemaryandThyme · 06/12/2011 13:48

There does come a point where children start using cubicles by themself, 5 is probably a bit young, particularly given that she doesn't like small spaces.

The adult should be in the same cubicle as the child, even if its just to help wring out the costume and dry their toes.

There is no need at all for children - or adults - to be changing in a large communal mass - lots of shoes get muddled - nothing wrong with a little modesty.

Original poster
hairnets · 06/12/2011 13:51

Of those who agree that a 5 year old girl should go in to a changing room in case the men look at her naked body, who also beleives a 5 year old boy should be in a changing room in case women look at his naked body?

OP posts:
Wamster · 06/12/2011 13:54

So he doesn't have the utmost respect for women because he likes looking at their bodies? Jeez, I'm amazed you have a dd together if he is that puritanical.

Let me tell you what having no respect for women really means, shall I?
It means thinking that real-life women are there for the disposal of men. It means raping them because, y' know, that is your entitlement.

Thinking that they you own them. That you can freely abuse them. Beating them up.

Not looking at some comic designed for men.

squeakytoy · 06/12/2011 14:07

Well said Wamster.

LRD, have you ever actually opened a copy of Zoo, or Nuts?

Granted, it isnt the most intellectual magazine in print, but it is not just a porn mag, of the same ilk as Playboy, Razzle, etc.