To not think my daughter should be made to use a changing room..

[hairnets]

When getting changed after swimming with her Dad?

He told me today that she received a telling off ("major roasting" were his words) for refusing to use her own changing room after he took her swimming. He felt that it wasn't appropriate for her to get changed out in the open because there were other men about in the room.

She's 5.

I obviously think he's BU and I know exactly why I do but interested in what others think before I bang on about why he's BU - If that makes any sense!!

So we are in a situation where swimming pools let children get changed in the changing room of the opposite sex if they are under 8, and the government is considering restricting the sale of lads mags to adults because they consider them inappropriate for children to see.

But some posters on here think it is unacceptable for either an adult to see a child of the opposite sex naked, or for a child to see an adult of the opposite sex naked. But it is acceptable presumably for a 5 year old boy or girl to see an adult woman almost naked, as long as she is wearing knickers, suspenders and clutching her naked breasts with her hands, as on the cover of Zoo magazine?

So if I'm in a changing room and a 5 year old comes in, should I whip on a pair of transparent knickers, get down on all fours and pout over my shoulder as in Zoo magazine, because that is acceptable for a child to see? Whereas if I am just getting changed, that is totally unacceptable?

Or is because one is in a photo? Is it acceptable for me to leave photos of myself on all fours etc around the house for visiting 5 year olds to see, but unacceptable for me to leave out photos of me getting changed?

Or is it because it is extremely important that women appear half naked in magazines and that five year olds should be exposed to that but not at all important that five year old children should be able to get changed in the same place as their parents?

Sorry, actually it is the latest issue of Nuts magazine, not Zoo.

Wamster - you are right, you and I do live on different planets. Don't patronise me by telling me what a sexist man is. I am more than aware. I don't think that anywhere in this thread I have demonstrated naivety nor a lack of understanding about women's issues.

Liking to look at a naked female body is not the same as enjoying reading things that are covered in the following:

this

or this

This stand out to me in particular on Ellen McArthur "miserable, sobbing, whining bitch in a boat ... basically a frigid-dyke-looking, yachting cunt."

Whilst a few pages later they were hero worshipping footballers for the sport that they work in.. In fact yes I think you are right Wamster - perfectly suitable for my DD to flick through while she has a poo.

Of those who agree that a 5 year old girl should go in to a changing room in case the men look at her naked body, who also beleives a 5 year old boy should be in a changing room in case women look at his naked body

I would feel uncomfortable being naked in front of any child that is not mine. In fact, I wouldnt parade around naked in front of my own child either, because I dont believe it is necessary, and I value privacy, and have done since I was a small child myself. I have no inhibitions whatsoever about walking around naked in front of my husband, or even going topless on the beach on holiday, but I would feel completely different and exposed in a changing room. If the changing rooms at the gym I go to were communal (ie same sex but open plan), I wouldnt go there.

I appreciate that many people are comfortable being naked in front of others, but equally there are many who arent, and many who would not feel comfortable if a small child were in the room.

I do think it is more applicable to men than women, as it is generally men who are the ones viewed with more suspicion in circumstances that involve nudity and children. I fully understand that this is stereotypical, but when we live in an era where the media would like us to think that every man is a paedophile if they so much as speak to someone elses child, I can completely see why any decent man would worry about being a situation where an accidental glance in the wrong direction could be misconstrued.

I would actually prefer Razzle or Playboy - at least they are what they are and it is generally accepted by people like my ex that children shouldn't see them. The problem with lad's mags is that they are considered a normal part of "what-men-do." I know someone who buys it for her 15 year old son in an attempt to steer him away from "proper porn"

What isn't normal however, is a naked 5 year old with her dad after a swim

I agree with your last post, squeakytoy. And hairnets has said that her ex is the sort of person who could well misinterpret a glance, and have a go at some poor innocent chap - which would be upsetting and embarrasing for his dd as well, I suspect.

Squeeky, I wasn't asking if you would feel uncomfortable being naked in front of a child. You could choose to use a cubicle if that were the case as could any of the men at the pool with DD. I am talking about what children are expected to do. Children who don't know modesty yet.

Milly, it is acceptable to see a statue in London that is of a naked person, with genitals fully on display. It would not be acceptable (I would hope!) for a living breathing human being to be standing naked on a plinth in London.

To me the changing room issue is not about sex, sexuality or objectification, it is about how comfortable men would feel being naked in front of a young child, particularly a female child. Most men would not.

Yes - but we are putting words in the man's mouth! I have spoken to him about this situation twice and on both occassions asked him exactly what his problem was and it was that the men may be looking at her naked body.

Not that he might think they were, not that they were embarrassed, not that she was embarrassed, not any of those things. She was hidden away, in a place where she was uncomfortable so that the men didn't have to control themselves from looking at her 5 year old body.

Squeaky, a woman in Nuts magazine is not the same as a statue. And I very much doubt a statue of a woman posing in the style of Nuts magazine would be put up in central London without massive controversy.

As for naked people being in London, wasn't there a naturist bike ride through central London a while back?

Here:

www.metro.co.uk/news/866062-nude-cyclists-take-to-streets-of-london-for-world-naked-bike-ride

But Hairnets, there is a possibility that they could have been looking at her naked body. What father wants the thought of any man looking at his childs naked body? And as another poster has said, statistically swimming pools and other public areas where there are likely to be naked children ARE sadly where paedophiles do frequent. That does not mean every man is a paedophile, but it does mean that there is a possibility that one man in there could be.

Out of curiosity, would it bother you to have your daughters photo on the internet? I only ask that because I see posted here so often that many parents are terrified of anyone with a camera, or are paranoid that their childs photo may be stolen off a website by paedophiles.

I realise that is going off a bit at a tangent, but it does sort of link to the "paedophile on every corner" type of debate too.

I don't think it is a tangent, squeakytoy. It is something that concerns people.

My attitude to it would be that if a paedophile looks at my child's naked body, and my child is unaware that anybody is looking at them in that way and I am unaware of it, then that is a vile thing to happen but we don't know about it. It has no direct impact on my child.

But by conveying a message to a child that they should cover up because of sexual predators, I am giving them a responsibility and a set of feelings about their own bodies that they shouldn't be given.

That is not to say that somebody couldn't have told my child to cover up for some other reason and that be fine. There will be different reasons somebody might give to a child.

I agree with squeaky's post at 14:16:35

However I'm sort of beginning to see what the OP means. If the only reason that her dd was required to use a cubicle was because she may be ogled by random men then that reason was wrong. There are other valid reasons for an opposite sex child using a cubicle and they are to do with the privacy and comfort of other users.

What MillyR said at 14:51

Which would be more reasonable, though - that one child should be asked to use a cubicle, or that all the men who are, after all, in the Men's changing room, should have to use the cubicles? He could have put her in the cubicle with the door open so she wasn't uncomfortable, and stood there with a towel to protect her (since he believed she needed protecting), and then got changed himself.

I'm still unsure why it's such a bad thing not to want naked strange men looking at your daughter's naked body. In an ideal world, it wouldn't and shouldn't be a problem, but we don't live in an ideal world, sadly.

hairnets, You can rage against this all you like, some men are perverts and your ex was only -in his misguided way-trying to protect his dd.

If you can't see that, then your naivety is breathtaking.

Why should they have to use a cubicle its a mens changing room, not a family area. Sexist views aside, your ex has a right as he is looking after your dd and she is in his care, to use a cubicle with her if he feels more comfortable. Tbh I would not like my naked child changing in front of strangers, you don't know them from adam, and as other posters who work in relevant fields have emphasised, swimming areas, sports centers can be hunting grounds for paedophiles. Not all men/women are, but you don't know who is or isen't so you have to be very careful imo. Little children don't know about modesty etc, but its the parents/carers job to protect the child. If you don't feel comfortable using a cubicle, then buy your child a poncho towel so that they can dry and change discreetly.

When you are changing your child you don't say to them we have to cover up because there are nasty paedophiles about, you just put a towel over them, or direct them to a cubicle to change without saying anything. My parents used to do that, but did not say anything negative, its only when I was an adult that i was aware of paedophiles.

I agree wamster, your ex is your dd dad and he has to do what he sees fit whilst she is in his care, same way as you do what you see fit whilst you are looking after your dd.

So many people missing the point spectacularly!!

The issue is not about ogling a 5 yo's body FGS.She nothing to ogle!
it is about protecting the comfort and privacy of the other pool users

Also and totally shocked that people think it's unreasonable for a 5 yo to dry and dress herself!

spider its not that people don't think that she should be able to dry and dress herself, its doing it alone. She is only 5 and might need some help, especially when you are dry its more difficult to put on clothes as your skin is clammy and rubbery.

spider many paedophiles might disagree with you there.

It's all about intentions at the end of the day, isn't it? If, as I believe, the ex just wanted to keep his daughter safe, all else is forgivable.
In years to come, this little girl will think 'daddy wanted to keep me safe' THAT'S all that really matters here not some half-baked feminist rubbish about her thinking it's her fault if perverts look at her.
The opening poster is really unforgiving of him. He is allowed no flaws in her eyes. She clearly dislikes him and this is colouring everything he does.