To be sat open mouthed at the Idiocy of Dave Camerons latest headline grabber

[penelopestitsdropped]

Multiculturalism has failed

Now whilst i believe the debate itself has merit ( though think that DC has put a rather disturbing anti islamic slant on it)
I do not think it the wisest day to do so given that there is a planned march by the English Defence League (think BNP with more hair) today

march in Luton

On the other hand, I do see it as a massive step forward that someone of mixed heritage such as yourself can identify herself as English or British. There were days when that would have been near impossible. It definitely shows an advancement in social attitudes and that is by far a good thing.

I agree the with starlight that the EDL and BNP are a result of the white working class being overlooked and ignored. You need to look no further than the Tories for that to continue though.
I don't think we have bent over backwards for foreigners but I do think political correctness has stopped people complaining about some of the wrongs in other cultures that are living here. Attituds towards and the treatment of women being a big example. However I don't agree with DC singling out the muslims the way he is. I also think he is just pandering to the daily mail brigade and making cuts.

2 things we do different for muslims

bigamy is a crime in Britain but if these second, third or forth marriages took place overseas than the uk tax payer will still pay benefits for them directly to the husband for these additional wives.

Imans from oversea's come in to teach in islamic schools which are unregulated and even acknowledged by british muslims physically and sexually abuse is rife.

ambarth - good point and one I agree with.

Starlight - Definitely is white working classes being overlooked. But maybe the racism had to be thier somehwere in the first place for them to turn on immigrants as opposed to the actual government that is overlooking them.

BTW, to all those who talk of an indiginous English, THERE IS NO SUCH THING! Soorry to burst your bubble.

lady - actually, before i moved when i lived in a predominantly muslim area there were no 'friends'/neighbours that i felt i could turn to in an emergency, try as i did to befriend neighbours, they were totally closed off however this isn't what i am used to. i grew up in the suberbs and yes, on the whole the communitys were close, ask any old english eastender, they will confirm this, people would chat to you, look out for you ie your property etc, help out if needed and i LOVED it. i have now moved to a more integrated area and it feels good. people smile at you and say good morning when walking down the street, run over the road to help if i look to be about to drop some shopping etc etc. you are so bitter and anti english people you do not appear to be able to see any good in them. your attitude is so bad you are unintentionally proving to people that feel badly towards you that you are coming over as text book stuff and i do not want to feel badly towards you, truly i don't but you are clearly displaying all the hatred that i assume alot of muslims feel towards british people they are living among.
ambarth - you said above 'where i lived it was mainly white (getting less so)' - exactly, this is the point that is so upsetting for alot of people, myself included. i could be living where you describe as i live in east london. where i lived was up until a few years ago predominantly white and at the same time, by coincidence very friendly and alot of courteousness was displayed towards ones neighbour, lovely. in the last few years it has changed almost beyond recognition and whilst it is lovely for you as you clearly want to remain among your own spare a thought for the indigineous population who are being shut out - in a word, if the shoe were on the other foot how would you feel. the difference is that i would love to mix with you guys, you don't want to mix with me, who is the racist one?

Can I just point out that the myth of winterval is just that, a myth? It was a banner used for a range of activities in Birmingham that covered Christmas, Diwali, New Year etc... It didn't replace Christmas and was never meant as a way to prevent offending non-Christian cultures.

The Daily Mail ran off with this event and turned it into 'evidence' that Birmingham was oversensitive towards muslims, but they simply didn't understand (or refused to understand) the facts.

Read the details here and let me know if you still feel so strongly about it:

Winterval

I don't think multi-culturalism failed everywhere and I wish the media would give a more balanced view of other cultures: report on positives instead of just negatives and extremes.

Don't tell me I lack knowledge of my Jamacian heritage. I don't need any validation that I belong from this nation from people who would call me 'a mongrel half-breed' as they are the racists and bigots, and the MINORITY. The majority of English people obviously don't feel like this, as the BNP is not in power and I and all the other immigrants and 'half-breeds' are not back on a ship where we came from!

I know all about England's involvement in the Slave Trade, but IT IS IN THE PAST! I don't expect English people to have to apologise for the wrong doing of their forefathers! That is completely insane! It's like saying to a German who was born 50 years after WWII you have to apologise for what your country did to the Jewish people.

Catholic schools have had problems with sexual abuse, in fact it has occured in many childrens institutions.

The benefits system is exploited by British people and pays for British men who have fathered children from numerous relationships.

Again, why single out Muslims?

Chibi's posts have been fascinating.

I live in a culture that despises foreigners, well some foreigners more than others: the hierarchy of acceptance tends to go: Americans (highly rated) followed by Black/white people from any country (presumed to be American unless they state otherwise) and finally South east Asians way way down at the bottom of the pile.

NOt sure what I can contribute to this discussion, apart from the fact that I don't think the British are particularly racist but they've always like a scapegoat and right now it's most definitely muslims.

I'm not sure the U.S is a country to look to in terms of multiculturalism. People are ghettoized according to colour. I never fail to be shocked at the way black people are portrayed in mainstream Hollywood films--, it's tokenism galore. And then the celebration of Jennifer Lopez and Halle Berry as beautiful black women I just don't regard it as a particularly tolerant place, but I could be wrong.

Sorry if the first bit comes across as aggressive, that wasn't my intention and I apologize, LDNmummy.

Strictly speaking the 'indigenous English' is the Picts. Find me some Picts and I'll try to fit in with them...

I've been following this thread with interest. To summarise a few points as I've understood them: the core debate seems to be between those who believe that migrants to a different culture should integrate with the dominant/host culture, and those who believe that it's wrong, intolerant or even racist for a host culture require this.

Within the integration/tolerance debate there's a further discussion about what kind or level of integration might be desirable, and what the consequences might be of ignoring this. Some are arguing that tolerance towards other cultures should be preserved at all costs, as a core characteristic of this country's culture. Meanwhile others feel that a level of tolerance is essential but if taken to extremes may result in social fragmentation as different communities stick to their 'own' and make no effort to find common cause with society as a whole.

Oh yes, I agree that the racism had to be there in the first place, LDNmummy. And of course, there is no such thing as an indignious British people, which makes me laugh when Nick Griffin says that!

Ambarth just said exactly what I was goinging to - spooky

Actually, the Germans did have to apologize and pay reperations for their actions as a nation through financial compensation. Also by handing over their nation to foreign powers until they were seen as fit to govern thmeselves again, and they were disallowed from having a military power for a very long time.

England has never had to do half those things.

Many people argue it is in the past, but this is definitely not true. The repurcussions of the slave trade are still evident today and affecting new generations of the Colonised nations. You can read numerous amounts of post colonial studies that will disprove that it is in the past. Yes, the starving children in Africa that you see on comic relief, much of this is a direct result of Africa's colonial past.

You can argue corruption, but these corrupt governments were put in place by foreign pwers such as Britain in the first place. Leaving behind distabilised nations that resources are still taken from today.

Ambarth, Gordy - you ask 'why single out Muslims'?

Not saying this is my view, but I suspect there's a feeling among a fair few people that if Muslims are singled out it might have something to do with buses and Tubes being blown up in the name of extremism?

Though I'm too young to remember much about the IRA, I've no doubt that while all that was happening the IRA bombs impacted on the way Irish people living in the UK were perceived at the time as well.

No problem Starlight, I was worried my post would come across the same way.

I do understand some of your points about this country bending over backwards, I am admittedly a bit of a xenophobe myself, even as a foreigner. But of course I do disagree with some ideas about this nation being very generous.

ambarth Yes the whole catholic church had had problems with abuse which is forever ramed down catholic throats but they have and are addressing the problem and how anyone working with children needs a crb check. Not so in an islamic school and never mentioned for fear of being called a racist.

I wont say british as many of the muslims who exploit the beneifits system are also british but the difference is if a non muslim has loads of children by different women the women claim income support themselves and there is no benefit claimable by the absent father. In the case of a muslim the father can claim.

So tell me what benefit a non muslim man can claim that a muslim cant?

gordy - morning, you said above 'because some british muslim men chose to blow people up'. this isn't exactly a normal pass time for most people. my point is, you seem so flippant in the way you come over as so casually mentioning this. surely you can see the seriousness in this. and even though there are only a few men/women who are prepared to martyr themselves for their cause the fact that ANYONE is prepared to do this is surely understandable for people to be afraid, even if you do not agree with them, surely you can see that. i have an open mind and desperatley want to remain open minded and want to be optimistic about a mutual happy future for us all, together

what an odd statement of course i can see the seriousness but i don't understand why this leads to such negativity and hatred

gordy - i don't fear muslims but i know alot of people that do. even though i don't share their fear i can understand why they do. it is unfair of the muslim person that innocently sits next to them ie on a tube but i can still understand why the person sat next to them may be nervous, as i said in a previous thread, even my friend (she is muslim) told me she gets nervous if she sits next to a muslim chap (bearded etc) on the tube. people are scared. and they would be scared of ie a ginger haired man with glasses if there were a spate of bombings done by ginger bearded glass wearing men too. people are just fearful. i understand this. it is wrong to fear all muslims for fear that one of them may bring harm to them or someone they love but this is understandable. the bombings in recent years hear and abroard have been done in the name of their religion, they say so

Bringnbuy I am white British. I think the rate of immigration has put a lot of pressure on these areas. That's why I said the growth of the EDL and the BNP are a result of the needs of the white working class being overlooked.(Especially with housing) But the housing crisis in these areas is also down to the Tory right to buy policy.

I am aware that some Muslims are racist and don't want to mix and but that's not the only reason some communities have become too insular. My experience is that some people will talk to ou and some won't. I do spare a thought for people still living there. I was concerned my daughter would be a minority in her local school. But I feel for the foreign kids in the school where we live now as it is predominantly white. I also wouldn't blame them for going to live in a more muslim area with all the islamaphobia that's about at the moment.

Dagenham? Barking? Hainault? By any chance?

ps: i meant to say 'it is unfair FOR the muslim person that innocently sits next to them'

I like what tethers said

we are debating this as though a mix of cultures in the uk is something that hasn't happened yet, that we can say 'oh yes, multiculturalism, rubbish idea, let's not have any of that'

we are all here now, and some of the people feeling alienated and as though they do not belong are 2nd and 3rd generations born here - there is no 'fuck off back home if you don't like it here' for those people

I really don't know what the way forward is- I wonder what do the indigenous (such as they are) Brits on this thread could identify what they think immigrants need to be doing in order to feel as though they belong

I am asking in good faith, and not trying to make a dig at anyone

They are not claiming benefits that non muslims can't. They are getting income support per adult and child benefit and child tax credits per child. So would the british jobless father of kids by two different women.

hi ambarth - i don't want to say where but none of the three places you have mentioned above. those three places i thought of were more white british working class, i live right in the real multicultural part. my dd's best friend is muslim from pakistan. they have been bf's for years now. i get on really well with her mother although it is quite hard as we have nothing in common and i can tell her mother doesn't feel particularly comfortable with me which is a shame but i understand. she is from pakistan and only been living here for above 6 years. i find it really interesting as i have learnt alot about their culture from her and her dd (and my dd, she tells me things). her dd recently told me her mother was married to her cousin. i am not critical of that, made me try an imagine if i could have married mine! it isn't illegal in the uk to marry your cousin although tbh the thought of me having married one of mine makes me feel sick :) if only we all got along. my other friend, proper really good friend is from india, she has taught me all sorts, i love knowing about other peoples cultures, it feels good to be able to break the divide, but there are MANY who really don't want to mix