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To be sat open mouthed at the Idiocy of Dave Camerons latest headline grabber

755 replies

penelopestitsdropped · 05/02/2011 11:59

Multiculturalism has failed

Now whilst i believe the debate itself has merit ( though think that DC has put a rather disturbing anti islamic slant on it)
I do not think it the wisest day to do so given that there is a planned march by the English Defence League (think BNP with more hair) today

march in Luton

OP posts:
Chil1234 · 05/02/2011 14:04

@NJK... part of the problem your in-laws are responding to is the way multiculturalist measures sometimes gives the impression of preferential treatment. It isn't helped by a media that likes to whip up rubbish such as 'Christmas cancelled so as not to offend non-christians'. It's quite possible for the Chinese communities this week to celebrate Chinese New Year without there being banner headlines about 'threats to the British way of life'

The US convention of describing oneself as 'African American', 'Italian American', 'Native American'... is one way of creating cohesion at the same time as respecting difference.

chibi · 05/02/2011 14:09

i am the child of immigrants (to a different country) and although i was of the first generation in my family born in my country, i felt i belonged, as much as someone whose family had been there for centuries

its history (played out while my ancestors did their own thing, ignorant of it and thousands of miles away) is my history, it genuinely feels that way to me, there is no intellectualising going on on my part

do immigrants here or their children feel this way here in the uk?

does some of this lie in the fact that englishness/scottishness/etc can be perceived as an ethnicity as well as or instead of a nationality?

TwoIfBySea · 05/02/2011 14:30

Multiculturalism is one of those phrases that is truly cringe inducing!

Britain has been made up from immigrants these past millennia so it isn't so much the issue there. But it is the fact that nowadays there is so much done to try and deny history, any sense of belonging and community in favour of, well it is either mollycoddling or patronising determination to bend to the will of incomers.

Perhaps it is more a Muslim problem because the Sikh, Hindu, Jewish, Chinese etc. communities have come here and pretty much fit in without demanding change and that we become more like them. People who don't need to state that they are English then origin, rather that they are simply English.

Being a Scot I'm proud of my ancestry, see no reason to apologise for that and know people of different origins who call themselves Scot and that is it. In fact one who gets insulted and annoyed when people ask "where his family come from" - he answers Bearsden, what they are refering to is the colour of his skin.

LDNmummy · 05/02/2011 15:18

I am not originally from this coutry but have lived here almost my whole life. I do not consider England my home but it is my adopted home.

I hate DC and I hate what he stands for but he has a point in some of what he says. I did not hear the whole speech but what I did hear made sense. He is not at all the first person to say these things nor will he be the last. The realisation of Britain as a failed multicultural state has become more apparent since the start of the millenium, and the riots in parts of Birmingham (the place I spent much of my formative years) and other parts of England are proof of this.

The thing to remember is that it is not just communities of ethnic minorities who fail to intigrate, though sometimes it is admittedly by choice.

Many local councils are guilty of sticking members of the same ethnic minority into the same estate or small area for instance. It is no coincidence that one estate can become, what may seem, over populated by one ethnic grouping when the council is the one allocating housing.

Also, many young members of ethnic minorities feel they are unwelcome in British society due to instances of racial discrimination, a lack of cultural understanding, a lack of opportunitties or language barriers that are not easily overcome.

What worries me is not the speech itself but the agenda behind it. Yes it is easy to sound fair when saying these things and as if you are aiming for a better society, but what action is actually going to take place. What tactics are going to be used to bridge that gap?

Race relations organizations are failing miserabley and the people in charge of such organisations or who decide on the ways in which to overcome these issues are usually not from ethnic minorites themselves and lack understanding of the core issues.

I am not a "PC" person, I do think that people come to this country to use our NHS and housing system, though not the majority. I do think that this country is too PC when dealing with radical hate preachers and the like. But, this country owes much of its wealth and prosperity to other nations, and the blood sweat and tears (in a very literal sense) to other ethnic groups.

Young people of minority groups feel dissilusioned, what we are yet to see from this government is how they are going to deal with it. These radicals BTW are a small minority, and I think he should not have talked of it as if it a problem that lies solely in relation to these groups.

LadyOfTheManor · 05/02/2011 15:24

What newspaper was this? The Guardian by any chance?

StarlightPrincess · 05/02/2011 15:30

Sorry, but I agree with David Cameron. If you live in an inner-city environment, you will see that certain races and cultures isolate themselves and do not attempt to ingratiate with the wider poplulation, and it has been allowed to happen and even encouraged, for fear of appearing racist.
The main problem with this country is that we have lost all sense of pride in ourselves as a nation. I mean, to fly the flag of St. George is considered racist and offensive...even though it's our country's flag! I second what Saltarix said about America. No matter what race you are, over there you are an American first and foremost. We could do well to take a leaf out of their book.

LadyOfTheManor · 05/02/2011 15:36

There's a difference between race and culture.

As someone of mixed ethnicity, I'd like to add that the majority of Middle Easterns/North Africans keep themselves to themselves for a reason;

The majority do not want to mix with people who drink, walk around half naked dressed without modesty, and basically doing everything in their culture is forbidden. Yes I realise I said "their culture" but if the option is a woman wearing a hijab or dressing like a stripper at the age of 14, I know which road I'd rather take.

StarlightPrincess · 05/02/2011 15:39

Well if they don't like mixing with people who do all those things, why not move to a country where those values are upheld?

Ladyofthehousespeaking · 05/02/2011 15:40

I think it depend alot on what culture it is-
I live in an area that is broadly Pakistani/Indian and we all mix really well,
however, alot of Somalian refugees have been placed near us and from my (limited) point of view, they don't try to mix with others at all, I think it's because they don't speak English, but I have become a bit exasperated with it- they don't know that they have to give up theirs seats for older people/prams and end up having to be told to / push in ques etc
It's creating quite a bad atomsphere between the rest of the community tbh.

LDNmummy · 05/02/2011 16:26

LadyOfTheManner, that is where I would say that when you move to another country, you should compromise some attitudes. Not everything, but some things.

I do wonder now at how many English feel marginalized in thier own country and want to "send the foriegners back home", yet do not make the link with the colonization and neo colonialism practiced by the same nation they belong to.

LadyOfTheManor · 05/02/2011 16:43

Starlight- it isn't a condition for living here that you have to "behave British".

I don't know what the problem is, leave people to live how they want to live. If they don't want to mix with a culture that supports say 24 hour drinking licences, or casinos or even like the fact that Britain has the highest rate of under age pregnancy in Europe...if they don't like those kind of things, then fine, they don't have to become British merely because they live in Britain.

StarlightPrincess · 05/02/2011 16:56

But if I went to Saudi Arabia, would I be able to act how I wanted to act? No, I wouldn't. I would HAVE to conform to their way of life.
So why should people come over here, shun British culture, look down on the British way of life, live in their own little segregated bubble, but still be able to reap all the rewards that comes with living here in Britain? It's a joke, to be honest.
Oh and I'm mixed heritage to by the way.

LadyOfTheManor · 05/02/2011 16:57

Erm because the laws of Saudi are different. If Britain had laws to dictate a persons' life then it would be different.

Please don't make out that Britain has heaps of rewards as result from living here.

By mixed heritage, I presume your British?

mee2 · 05/02/2011 16:59

"muscular liberalism"

Maybe the torys's might be good for something after all

chibi · 05/02/2011 17:03

What about people who come here, work hard, try to fit in etc and yet still are told by fellow Brits that they will never really be British, or belong, that they and people like them are scroungers who have come with the express purpose of abusing the Nhs or claiming benefits or eating swans

can you see how those attitudes are alienating, and might lead people to feel as though there is no point in integrating as they'll never be accepted anyway

also what about people who were born here and don't want to mix with people drinking or who wear refraining clothes? There are indigenous Brits (whatever that means) who feel that way- what about them?

chibi · 05/02/2011 17:04

Gah

Revealing clothes

LadyOfTheManor · 05/02/2011 17:07

Excellent point Chibi,

THe Brits who choose to refrain from partaking in those activities are;

a)Educated
b)My friends already
c)Sadly don't make up a lot of numbers

I hate being accused of being here to "reap the huge rewards that Britain has to offer", when I pay a lot of damned tax to pay for things like the NHS (which I don't even use).

I have a son, who I will be protecting as much a possible from British popular culture-does this mean "I have to go back to where I came from"? The fact I refuse to go to mother & baby groups because all the mothers are 16...is that a valid reason "to send me home"?

Or perhaps because I don't dress like a 2 dollar hooker when I leave the house-is that because I'm not making ENOUGH EFFORT to fit in with British life?

Please enlighten me.

ManateeEquineOhara · 05/02/2011 17:11

Multiculturalism failing...Angela Merkel made similar comments.
I wouldn't say it has failed, it could be improved, but failure is a bit strong. I think a lot of the improvements need to come from the attitudes of the 'British' rather than immigrants.

mee2 · 05/02/2011 17:15

LoTM, the central point here is that the UK is a liberal democracy not theocratic autocracy. The UK would not exist of it "had laws to dictate a persons life".

I am explicity 'making out' that the UK has heaps of rewards as a result of being a liberal democracy - for all it's citizens, which is why those from ultra conservative cultures come here. Such societies aren't only crushing to women but to men also.

As for teenagers wearing hijabs, should I get the vote to ban such a sympbol of female subjection - to 'god' and men - I'll be voting with the French.

onimolap · 05/02/2011 17:16

Interesting to note (re Merkel) that he was speaking in Munich.

Also interesting to note that he was speaking at a security conference, which is the probable explanation of his apparent singling out of Muslim groups, as those extremists are the ones who currently pose a threat to general security.

StarlightPrincess · 05/02/2011 17:17

Why then are you bringing your son up then in a country that you think will damage him in some way?

And if you don't think Britain has huge rewards from living here, then why are you living here? Why not live in a less delveloped country that conforms with your values?

Please enlighten me to that.

With regards to my mixed heritage, my paternal grandparents were of the first wave of Caribbean immigrants that came over in the 50's.

StuckinTheMiddlewithYou · 05/02/2011 17:20

"Multiculturalism has failed" is double-speak for "Muslims are scary". The man's an idiot.

The sole point of this is to distract us.

Chil1234 · 05/02/2011 17:20

I think the part of the speech which referred to 'passive tolerance' was the most interesting. In the majority of cases, the idea of 'live and let live as you're not harming anyone' works just fine... we all rub along, enjoy each other's festivals, foods, clothes, dance routines etc. No problem. But when it means turning blind eyes or - worse - failing to intervene for fear of causing offence, then there is an issue. We've only just started to treat the forced marriage practices as a child protection issue, for example, whereas in the past it was treated as a 'cultural difference' and largely ignored.

LDNmummy · 05/02/2011 17:27

Lady - I get where you are coming, I come from a conservative background in terms of alcohol, dress sense etc..

But you are very insulting ("two dollar hooker"). I agree with the fact that I would never walk around in the type of dress that you are talking about, but I wouldn't go around calling people who do two dollar hooker look alike's. Although I do think it panders to a patriarchal system of oppressing women.

Also, there are a lot of educated people who are big drinkers or alcoholics. You only have to walk around the square mile on a Friday after work to see that.

bringnbuy · 05/02/2011 17:28

i'm sick of hearing the excuse of how british youngsters behave (drink/sex) & dress as an excuse to not want to mix with us. Yes, i agree that it is sad that alot of young english people have gone ott on their behaviour. I hear it all the time, generally having come from muslim mothers. I actually think they are quite racist. it gets back to me on a regular basis, plus i see it mentioned on here in threads often enough. talk about labelling everyone the same. i think possibly it has something to do with the fact that immigrants tend to ghetto in one area which is more likely to have this type of english girl living there giving thought to them that all english girls dress and behave this way. english girls do not all dress and behave this way, not all english people neglect their families as i have also read and heard many times either. pure racism and looking down on english way of life. they don't mix with us, and have no interest in doing so. i live in an inner city ghetto and it is as bad as it gets. i have tried to befriend muslim mothers but they are TOTALLY closed off, have no interest in being friends outside their group and i dress totally coverered (boobs covered, no tight tops etc), my dd has been brought up old fashioned and is just like their kids but they will no talk or have anything to do with white english women. not a chance. THIS alone has made alot of people sick of having multiculturism stuffed in their face

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