A question only for those who think UK society has lost its way, in the fascist direction

[supercrone]

How long do you think this will last? And how bad will it get? I'm thinking of Weimar Germany. So let's say 1929 to 1945. But then also the post way recovery. Will a whole generation lose their best years? I can't see things getting better very fast to be honest. I think things are going to get much worse before they get better. Much much worse. What do other people think? I'm not at all interested in the views of those who think that things are getting better. You go off to your own thread. This is for the really worried among us.

I believe that idea has been abandoned by Andy Burnham.

Yes, it is a worry. I’ve noticed so much hate towards Jews, it is pretty shocking. You’d think people would give some thought to the horrors of WW2 and never want a repeat of that again. I feel very sorry for the Jewish community and I’m not surprised so many of them are choosing to leave the UK.

Well said.

Yes, I understand that there have been some riots and I'm not attempting to minimise that at all. But these seem not to be widespread, usually happening locally in response to a specific trigger, and shortlived. Civil unrest to me seems like something that is a bit more constant. There have always been shortlived and usually quickly under control protests and riots in response to specific things. It feels maybe a little worse than usual but not out of control.

I feel sorry for the Jewish community. But I also think that they need to speak up a bit more about what is going on in Palestine or people will continue to conflate Zionism with Judaism. I would have thought that after the horrors of WWII, the Jewish community would have been a bit quicker to speak out about what is happening to Palestinians.

I'm Jewish and I agree but... it's complicated.

Firstly, quite a lot of Jews do speak up, but we're not generally quoted or given much profile by the media. Jews who are defending Israel's actions and saying they are so scared of antisemitism they want to move to Israel are considered more newsworthy.

Second - I think some Jews do want to criticise Israel, but it would mean literally all their friends and family stopping talking to them. Some of my friends and family disagree with me and DH criticising Israel and speaking up for Palestine, but are open minded enough not to refuse to talk to us on that account. Also most of our friends aren't Jewish, so we have a lot less to lose than people whose whole social circle is.

Third - Israel is not just some nice-to-have place to do Jew stuff, it's not important because 'God gave it to us' or it fulfils some prophecy. The point is that it is supposed to be a refuge for Jews after millennia of persecution, the one place we won't suffer for being Jewish. Now personally, I feel much safer in the UK than I would there, but I understand people's strength of feeling and if Israel ceased to exist as a Jewish state tomorrow, it would be naive to think that Jews everywhere would be just fine. So there's a lot of fear about 'what if something happens to Israel?' (not for me personally, but I understand others having it) and I think many Jews fall into a belief that 'No one else will defend Israel, so we must - it didn't do that, it can't have done that... or if it did that it must have had a reason'. There's this desperation to believe it couldn't have done the things it has.

Personally I think if we want to defend some sort of future for a Jewish state, we need to call it to account and be clear it can be called to account like any other country rather than defending it regardless of its actions.

Sorry, bit of a diversion, but needs to be said.

Oh really ? They might just ask social media companies to ID users by their passports instead

This is really thoughtful and interesting. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your response.

I do agree that it is very likely that the media isn't representing the full range of Jewish opinions just as they don't with the rest of the UK, focussing instead on eg Nigel Farage and people who want to vote for Reform to a ridiculous extent because they know he/they will say or do something stupid or excessive that will make an article interesting. I am aware that many Jewish people are not Zionists and I have several Jewish friends, none of whom are Zionists, and a majority of them are as angry about Palestine as I am.

For full context, my dad is a non-religious Muslim so probably in much the same place as my Jewish friends, most of whom eat bacon etc and aren't particularly religious. My mum's a catholic by birth but no longer goes to church so fortunately I've not been brought up with any particular religious beliefs and feel quite grateful for that! It's a divisive area!

Your point about the social context is something I hadn't considered because none of my Jewish friends are religious and their families aren't particularly religious so this isn't a consideration for them. They're not in the same bubble that some Jewish people may be. I too have not been brought up in that environment of whatever religion so hadn't considered that aspect of things fully.

I can totally understand the fear of 'what if something happens to Israel' as I think most people of any ethnic minority would be able to do. Everyone wants to feel like there is a safe space somewhere in the world, and the trauma of WWII is obviously still informing the world view of people today who were brought up by other people who were fortunate to escape with their lives but still probably very damaged in other ways.

What I can't really understand is the 'Israel wouldn't do that' mentality. Because they are. And it's not hard to find the information. I guess people aren't looking.

Thanks so much for your post, though. It's given me food for thought.

I don't think one can underestimate Jewish anxiety. And look, it's not totally irrational because antisemitism didn't start with the Nazis, we literally suffered two millennia of exclusion and victimisation.

A lot of Jews truly believe that the world hates us and the world hates Israel so the bad stuff they hear just has to be made up or exaggerated. And some of it is, I don't believe any old crap just because I criticise Israel either. But I think we have more than enough evidence from sources I would say our impartial to be clear awful things are being done. But a lot of people just don't want to believe it because what price 'our refuge' then?

Why is it the duty of Jewish people who have lived in Britain their whole lives to "speak up" about events in another country that they have no control over?

Yes

other religions aren’t put under the same pressure

Of course they are!
Not that I think Jewish people in the UK have to speak up.

I think other religions are absolutely subject to the same kinds of pressures. And I think it would be helpful for Jewish people to speak up because otherwise people who conflate Zionism with Judaism assume that they support the awful things that are happening. But obviously I'm not in charge and people must do what they think best.

Thank you @Echobelly . These are some of the most helpful posts I've read on this matter.

It's all of our duty to speak up, regardless of our religion. Or lack of it.

It's almost like a show. "We're going to monitor you to within a metre of your location. Oh wait never mind, we just sacked that guy, here's someone else"

Oh no, they are not, the double standard is only for the Jews.

Muslim people in the UK should not be questioned or challenged about the extremists within their faith, even the UK-born ones, or it's islamophobia. That's been the mantra since 2001, look where it has led us, dozens of attacks.

But Jewish ppl in the UK must justify themselves for the actions of another state.

And team forcing them with Hamas because "they should have empathy because they were the victims of a genocide once already" is quite a despicable view.

People are suffering in Gaza because they are led by extremists who put the destruction of Israel above all else, even their own survival, and launched a barbaric attack on October 7, not giving a jot about what the consequences would be for the Gazans. Not because of the Jewish community in the UK.

I can clearly remember times in this country when both the Muslim and Catholic communities have been under pressure when people of their faith committed atrocities, sometimes in other countries.

Muslim people in the UK should not be questioned or challenged about the extremists within their faith, even the UK-born ones, or it's islamophobia.

But aren't you saying exactly this? That Jewish people in the UK should not be questioned or challenged about extremists within their faith or it's antisemitism and unfair?

I'm definitely not saying that the Jewish community in the UK is responsible for what is happening. I'm saying that in my experience sometimes religious or ethnic communities do need to speak up and separate themselves from situations not of their making, in part for their own benefit.

I'll leave it there since I am obviously upsetting you by asking questions, and I have no wish to upset anyone.

Claiming you want to be kind or to care for my feelings is simply to avoid owning that you said sth quite horrible, wrong and unfair.

Hell is paved with good intentions. You should raise your bar.

The Palestinians (as a society, not every individual) reason for being is to destroy Israel and the Jewish people. Zionists believe the Jewish people should have a homeland. I’m not Jewish but I’m a Zionist. Israel, like any other country, is allowed to defend itself in war.

There are numerous Muslim countries (most of which used to be majority other religions but that type of colonisation seems to be ignored) but some people cannot stand for the Jewish people to have just ONE safe homeland, even with the knowledge of the atrocities of the Holocaust in recent history.

Why should British Jews have to ‘speak up’ or explain their position to anyone? I don’t ask my Muslim friends to explain their stance on Hamas atrocious.

Totally agree with you

You've a lot going on here. First everyone was told not to blame Muslims in the UK for terrorist actions. If so. hat seem's reasonable to me. Then you keep to saying that the people is have deserve what's happened to them because of October 7th. Now that's a very flawed narrative that ignores a very long history since the nakba.

If they're not responsible fpr what's happening, why do they need to speak out?

'Muslim people in the UK should not be questioned or challenged about the extremists within their faith, even the UK-born ones, or it's islamophobia. That's been the mantra since 2001, look where it has led us, dozens of attacks.'

I don't think that has been the attitude, and its not caused attacks. People do ask Muslims to denounce terrorism all the time and they do all the time. Anti terrorism forces do the best they can and have indeed foiled attempts, but they can't catch everyone, especially not lone actors. I mean you could prevent it entirely by locking all Muslims up just in case, but that's hideous and immoral. You could say, don't let any not into the UK, just in case, but that's also gross.

There does need to be better addressing of anti Jewish feeling in the Muslim community. It is a problem, even among non radicalised Muslims, sadly, and is basically about Israel because prior to Israel, there really wasn't any beef between Jews and Muslims.

To bring this back to the original topic of the thread, one of the things that worries me about the current discourse in the UK is that as a Jew, I'm being used to 'Anti-antisemitism-wash' Islamophobia and attempts to delegitimise the political left by the political right. They don't care about it, but we're useful because they say 'Look at us, we're the only ones protecting the Jews look how antisemitic the Left is because they criticise Israel ' and people are falling from it. They want to scapegoat immigrants and Muslims and especially Muslim immigrants for all our problems, making the country more racist which makes it less safe for Jewish people. Because anyone who will blame 'the Other' will move on to us sooner or later.

@Echobelly

People do ask Muslims to denounce terrorism all the time and they do all the time.

Just going to do a copy paste of a former post of mine from 29/05

"I have just been googling "moderate muslims against muslim extremism uk"
What is coming back from the MCB Muslim Council of Britain or the BBC dates from 2017 and 2014, and is about ppl leaving to join Isis.

If you have anything more recent or relevant, please, don't hesitate to share."

Still waiting to discover the wave of articles and initiatives taken by moderate Muslims to denounce terrorism that have shurely passed me, the media and Google by...

Between the ignorance, the naivety and the denial, I am not going to engage further with you, I think your time would be better used to self-reflect and do some research before spewing bs.

Sure, whatevs.