A question only for those who think UK society has lost its way, in the fascist direction

[supercrone]

How long do you think this will last? And how bad will it get? I'm thinking of Weimar Germany. So let's say 1929 to 1945. But then also the post way recovery. Will a whole generation lose their best years? I can't see things getting better very fast to be honest. I think things are going to get much worse before they get better. Much much worse. What do other people think? I'm not at all interested in the views of those who think that things are getting better. You go off to your own thread. This is for the really worried among us.

It's not a debate. I'm interested in hearing from people with similar worries to me about where they think things are going. Same as if I asked other vegetarians for where they liked to eat, I wouldn't be looking for a debate on vegetarianism.

Exactly. Thank you

Things are definitely going on a worrying direction with social media making it easier than ever for emotive lies to take centre stage in a way that makes them very hard to counter.

The sad thing is that many people following these lies share base concerns with those who don't - affordability, housing, keeping the NHS free at point of delivery. But the difference is much of the media and social media, is in the hands of fewer and fewer richer and richer people (which I think is the real source of societal and economic injustice) and they are able to control the narrative to say 'Don't look at us! Look at that guy cleaning offices and living in a bedsit who came from Albania! He's ruining everything!'

It would also help if people on the left (and I'm a leftie) would stop just calling other people thick racists and actually talk to them about our shared base concerns. The fact is, most people don't support unalloyed wealth or profiteering that goes only to shareholders or very cash rich businesses or individuals not paying a fair share of tax. Which is what we should concentrate on to fight fascism.

This is such a reductive argument. Plenty of people talk about immigration without either being racist or being accused of it. That has always been the case. If you are constantly accused of being racist when talking about immigration, maybe have a think about what exactly your views on immigration are.

E.g:

We need to make sure our immigration policies work well for us as an economy whilst also meeting our international obligations on refugees ✅

We are full, we shouldn’t be taking any more and illegals should all be deported because they are raping women. ❌

I'm interested in hearing from people with similar worries to me
LOL. And you think other people are the problem!

It's perfectly fine to talk about your views with similar minded people.

As for where things are going. I have some more hope for the UK over, say, America in that at least we don't have the very powerful , conservative Church movement here and I think there would be resistance to, say, attempts to reduce abortion access, because we don't have masses of people who are very driven in their thinking by their pastors.

I love a good debate and I'm very good at it. I often contribute to debates on various threads. I started this thread to share views with people who shared my worries. Not to have a debate. That's perfectly reasonable. I made it clear at the start it wasn't a debate thread

I think it’s the usual problem of the minority view having the loudest voices. Most people are busy working and haven’t the time to argue on social media.

I found that deleting instagram, x and tic tok changed my views on this. I now listen to some fairly middle of the road news podcasts for my news (the news agents and the bbc one), and have taken the view that I’ll judge the state of the nation on what I experience rather than what is on social media. And as it turns out, for me at least in my West Midlands new town with a long standing Asian community and what appears to be reasonable co existence of people. People seem to be doing okay and getting on with their lives. I’ve also been to a variety of sporting events and shows and meals out in my own town and Birmingham and again everything seems to be fine. It is a far cry from the apocalyptic decline of a nation I used to get on the socials.

maybe that means I’ve got my head in the sands, or maybe, just maybe, most people are getting on with their lives and it’s not actually as bad as your social media suggests that it is.

I live in a place where Farage and his we just care about illegal immigration disguise for nasty racism has been very popular, but there are no signs that he himself is finished, and many of those with genuine concerns about immigration, who are not racist are starting to turn away from him .

My fear is that, leaves the space for even nastier racists to become mainstream.

As PP says, so many parallels to the rise of facism in Germany, which only came to an end after people were forced to acknowledge awful atrocities. So, the answer is I don't know how or when this ends 😪

Yes I think it will get worse. I see a lot of tribalism around. It is considered normal to only care about your own immediate family and making a small sacrifice which benefits someone else is out of the question. Racism seems to be getting worse, men and women seem to hate each other, the transphobia is sickening, and people demonise the poor and people on benefits. It all makes me sad. But every time I think surely it can’t get any worse, it does.

Yes net zero ideed

and the hypocrisy of AI and the resource draining data centres. Concreting over countryside etc

It would also help if people on the left (and I'm a leftie) would stop just calling other people thick racists and actually talk to them about our shared base concerns

i completely agree with this, as someone so is also left leaning. The minute you call someone racist you shut down the conversation. Whether underneath this fear of foreigners taking our jobs and raping our women is a feeling that people have been shafted because of the cost of living and the quality of public services.

Left wing politics needs to firmly center itself around talking about decent pay, housing for all, safety and reliable services.

We lost our way when some people started to believe that humans could change sex and that anyone who didn't go along with this idealogy deserved to be verbally abused or worse.

No, it was much earlier than that. When you couldn't express concern about immigration numbers without being branded racist.

@BoredZelda

shouldn’t illegal immigrants (by which I don’t mean asylum seekers, but people who have overstayed visas or who have snuck in but not claimed asylum and are here illegally) be deported? Surely that is the purpose of having laws?

is it unreasonable to be concerned that young men who have been living in a country which is extremely brutalised and unbelievably misogynistic may not share the same values and may need, at the very least, some form of planned integration strategy?

is it unreasonable to query whether the asylum system is really working when you can pay a gang leader to come to Britain knowing that they are a criminal (it’s hardly a surprise is it? You wouldn’t need a small boat if it were legitimate!) and then claim that you are a victim of people smuggling and fear reprisals to stay? Or you can claim you are a victim of the Taliban, whether or not that is true and no one can check it?

is it unreasonable to query whether international laws that were designed at a time at which people smuggling was not really a thing and smartphones certainly were not are serving their original purpose, particularly when the limits of what counts as “oppression” or “family ties” have been stretched to quite a large extent beyond armed conflict etc that were originally in view?

Is it unreasonable to point out that 40 per cent of those claiming asylum are never expected to pay tax, so there is a genuine question around funding and integration?

these are difficult conversations and none of that requires us to be racist or claim immigrants are rapists, but I personally don’t see enough of them happening in a sensible mainstream forum.

Yes, I agree and it's a mistake I've made myself because some of them are thick and racist, but I realise it's not helpful in changing their views and only entrenches the behaviour further.

The added facet is climate change - that didn’t exist in the ‘30s

the longer right wing hold charge the worse climate change will be and the more global the impact

which means that there will be less international support to help a failing country out

it’s not a lost generation - it’s a lost nation. I don’t think we will recover for hundreds of years.

as long as they have the same views as you natch..
people who don’t have your views should be stopped from meeting or having these discussions?…

Exactly my point though

I don’t know the exact stats but let me hypothesise.

Half the country do not want any more immigration. They do not like what they see.

The other half don’t mind. Whether that’s because they aren’t affected or actually don’t mind.

This has been going on for a long time now.

Whether it gets worse I can’t say. Because I actually believe it’s both groups which contribute to that.

The solution imo is to cut immigration drastically and let us go through a period of normalisation and integration. I don’t know how long that takes. A generation perhaps which neither side will be happy with.

No, your point was anyone talking about immigration is called racist. They aren’t. But people making racist accusations (they are all rapists) may be accused of racism. Surely you have no issue with that?

My views are probably not sufficiently similar to yours to be welcome - but I am worried about Farage and his mates. Problem is that I suspect that you, op, may be one of the ones who has helped create the problem.

The right wing used to be the nasty party who gave zero fucks about any of the less fortunate and didnt see them as fully human. Now we have left wing parties pushing no debate - which is a bigoted as you can get - and seeing people who disagree with them as someone to be deprived of employment and sometimes of liberty for saying something they disagree with.

The left legitimatised intolerance and bigotry like the right legitimised greed and now it's biting you.

I dont think it'll get as bad as Germany because there are still enough of us who remember what a tolerant society looked like and will oppose the worst extremes. But the international position is poor and unless the economy picks up OR the left stop being the nasty party then we probably get 4/5 years with a minority right wing government.

Are you going to support Burnham, op, when he has to take tough decisions on spending priorities - or are you going to want to carry on in your fantasy bubble?

The problem with only wanting to hear from people who share your views is that it's not healthy because you just feed off each other's anxiety which makes you feel worse.