Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

A question only for those who think UK society has lost its way, in the fascist direction

174 replies

supercrone · 23/07/2026 23:57

How long do you think this will last? And how bad will it get? I'm thinking of Weimar Germany. So let's say 1929 to 1945. But then also the post way recovery. Will a whole generation lose their best years? I can't see things getting better very fast to be honest. I think things are going to get much worse before they get better. Much much worse. What do other people think? I'm not at all interested in the views of those who think that things are getting better. You go off to your own thread. This is for the really worried among us.

OP posts:
MyOliveStork · 24/07/2026 11:09

I have come to the conclusion that the world is a horrible place, always has been and always will be.
Be grateful for those that you hold close and look after them as best you can.

InWithPeaceOutWithStress · 24/07/2026 11:11

senua · 24/07/2026 09:54

I'm not at all interested in the views of those who think that things are getting better. You go off to your own thread. This is for the really worried among us.
What a ridiculous position to take. Is this how you normally debate?

She’s looking for a discussion not a debate. It can be incredibly productive to discuss things in depth with people you largely agree with. Not everything has to be a debate with opposing sides.

anyolddinosaur · 24/07/2026 11:14

We're in a mess. That means change is needed. A "discussion" with people who agree with you only works if you recognise that change is needed and discuss how to make the changes.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Gealach · 24/07/2026 11:14

mamamamamamamamarmalade · 24/07/2026 10:45

@BoredZelda

shouldn’t illegal immigrants (by which I don’t mean asylum seekers, but people who have overstayed visas or who have snuck in but not claimed asylum and are here illegally) be deported? Surely that is the purpose of having laws?

is it unreasonable to be concerned that young men who have been living in a country which is extremely brutalised and unbelievably misogynistic may not share the same values and may need, at the very least, some form of planned integration strategy?

is it unreasonable to query whether the asylum system is really working when you can pay a gang leader to come to Britain knowing that they are a criminal (it’s hardly a surprise is it? You wouldn’t need a small boat if it were legitimate!) and then claim that you are a victim of people smuggling and fear reprisals to stay? Or you can claim you are a victim of the Taliban, whether or not that is true and no one can check it?

is it unreasonable to query whether international laws that were designed at a time at which people smuggling was not really a thing and smartphones certainly were not are serving their original purpose, particularly when the limits of what counts as “oppression” or “family ties” have been stretched to quite a large extent beyond armed conflict etc that were originally in view?

Is it unreasonable to point out that 40 per cent of those claiming asylum are never expected to pay tax, so there is a genuine question around funding and integration?

these are difficult conversations and none of that requires us to be racist or claim immigrants are rapists, but I personally don’t see enough of them happening in a sensible mainstream forum.

It’s not true that you wouldn’t need a small boat if you were a legitimate asylum seeker. There are very few legal routes to claim asylum, that’s why people arrive via illegal routes. It doesn’t automatically make their claim fake. They are mainly Eritrean, Afghani and Sudanese.

People smuggling was a “thing” when the convention was written. But the point of it is not to protect smugglers, it’s to ensure that people can still ask for protection no matter how they arrive.

And armed conflict was not the main thing in mind. It was persecution by your own country. So that cases like MS St Louis shouldn’t happen again.

I agree with much of what you say. I believe in a rules based immigration system and integration is extremely important and should not be ignored. But there is just some disinformation peppered into your very worthy points

InWithPeaceOutWithStress · 24/07/2026 11:17

Gealach · 24/07/2026 10:41

It would also help if people on the left (and I'm a leftie) would stop just calling other people thick racists and actually talk to them about our shared base concerns

i completely agree with this, as someone so is also left leaning. The minute you call someone racist you shut down the conversation. Whether underneath this fear of foreigners taking our jobs and raping our women is a feeling that people have been shafted because of the cost of living and the quality of public services.

Left wing politics needs to firmly center itself around talking about decent pay, housing for all, safety and reliable services.

What about when people are actually being racist though? One of the causes of the rise of fascism in Weimar Germany was that people weren’t calling out the racism against Jews. They were being dehumanised more and more verbally. This wasn’t challenged and things escalated to a horrifying degree.

Ted27 · 24/07/2026 11:21

I think what's happening in the good old US of A is very sobering and I thank the God I don't really believe in that we don't have a gun culture here.
I an white but have a mixed race son with an African name, yes I am worried how things are going here.

supercrone · 24/07/2026 11:21

InWithPeaceOutWithStress · 24/07/2026 11:11

She’s looking for a discussion not a debate. It can be incredibly productive to discuss things in depth with people you largely agree with. Not everything has to be a debate with opposing sides.

Exactly this but it's hard to get

OP posts:
RanniTheWitch · 24/07/2026 11:22

2dogsandabudgie · 24/07/2026 11:08

The problem with only wanting to hear from people who share your views is that it's not healthy because you just feed off each other's anxiety which makes you feel worse.

This isn’t true. Talking with people who feel the same can remind us we are not alone, which makes us feel better.

You’re entirely entitled to your views by the way, I don’t want to debate them. But my impression is (and op please correct me if I am wrong) that op set up this thread because they were feeling down and wanted to feel like they’re not alone in their views. Sometimes people want to debate their views. Other times they just want to feel like someone understands them.

supercrone · 24/07/2026 11:22

InWithPeaceOutWithStress · 24/07/2026 11:17

What about when people are actually being racist though? One of the causes of the rise of fascism in Weimar Germany was that people weren’t calling out the racism against Jews. They were being dehumanised more and more verbally. This wasn’t challenged and things escalated to a horrifying degree.

I also think you do have to call out racism or it continues unchecked. Maybe there are different ways of calling it out though, some less aggressive than others?

OP posts:
saraclara · 24/07/2026 11:23

The de-humanisation of a section of our society is terrifying. If you want to see it in action, go to any DM or Express comments section after the death of a brown person.

The Express comments section after the Muslim mother and daughter drowned yesterday is absolutely sickening.

supercrone · 24/07/2026 11:24

RanniTheWitch · 24/07/2026 11:22

This isn’t true. Talking with people who feel the same can remind us we are not alone, which makes us feel better.

You’re entirely entitled to your views by the way, I don’t want to debate them. But my impression is (and op please correct me if I am wrong) that op set up this thread because they were feeling down and wanted to feel like they’re not alone in their views. Sometimes people want to debate their views. Other times they just want to feel like someone understands them.

Yes. I'm debating people on lots of threads e.g the horrible prison one. This was intended for a chat among like minded people.

OP posts:
Lugol · 24/07/2026 11:24

ExpectMore · 24/07/2026 09:51

I mean, the only way to be a politician historically was to be ridiculously wealthy? That’s until they changed the rules and introduced salaries and expenses etc. is that the example you’re looking for? Sorry if it ruins your hyperbole

Can you explain how Angela Raynor became a multi-millionaire? Most of the current politicians are multi-millionaires.

It's not hyperbole either, the divide and conquer has been going on for the past 10 years as a campaign via the media.
And it works a treat.

Lugol · 24/07/2026 11:25

saraclara · 24/07/2026 11:23

The de-humanisation of a section of our society is terrifying. If you want to see it in action, go to any DM or Express comments section after the death of a brown person.

The Express comments section after the Muslim mother and daughter drowned yesterday is absolutely sickening.

I agree.
You should see the shit written about Jews.

supercrone · 24/07/2026 11:25

MyOliveStork · 24/07/2026 11:09

I have come to the conclusion that the world is a horrible place, always has been and always will be.
Be grateful for those that you hold close and look after them as best you can.

Oh I don't feel that at all. People have people for great good and the world is generally a wonderful place, it at least it can be

OP posts:
Jerrybalanitis · 24/07/2026 11:25

supercrone · 24/07/2026 00:39

I never mentioned any issue like being opposed d to economic migrants. I'm talking about a general atmosphere of growing hatred. The people in talking to know what I mean.

You and your cronies and your post asking only people who agree with you to read, you are spitting hatred yourself. Go shopping, read a book, join a club, anything to help your issues.

supercrone · 24/07/2026 11:26

ALovelyPinkUnicorn · 24/07/2026 10:51

as long as they have the same views as you natch..
people who don’t have your views should be stopped from meeting or having these discussions?…

I never said anything like that. You just made that up.

OP posts:
supercrone · 24/07/2026 11:27

2dogsandabudgie · 24/07/2026 11:08

The problem with only wanting to hear from people who share your views is that it's not healthy because you just feed off each other's anxiety which makes you feel worse.

Or you share ways of feeling better

OP posts:
InWithPeaceOutWithStress · 24/07/2026 11:30

Jerrybalanitis · 24/07/2026 11:25

You and your cronies and your post asking only people who agree with you to read, you are spitting hatred yourself. Go shopping, read a book, join a club, anything to help your issues.

🤣 I presume every time you find yourself in a conversation where you’re in agreement, you immediately excuse yourself to go shopping or read a book? Must be exhausting in your friendship circles having to constantly disagree on and debate everything!

Echobelly · 24/07/2026 11:31

I actually don't think Reform will win the next election - the predicted tidal wave of Reform councils did not appear at the local elections and people will usually take more of a 'risk' with minority parties at those than GEs. I'm sure they will move to double figures of MPs, but I think the Greens might as well, only no one will talk about that.

But if the alternative is the Tories, they won't be much better than Reform.

I worry that, whoever is in government, we are dithering towards a scenario where, if AI takes a lot of jobs (I'm not convinced it will), we drift into large scale poverty with even more money and power in the hands of ever fewer people and businesses

Persephonia1966 · 24/07/2026 11:36

Ofmiceandmenandtroubledrants · 24/07/2026 09:58

They never are interested in debate. Want to talk about immigration, well you are a racist...net result : Brexit.

They don't see it though, and never will

It feels weird have done nothing but talk about immigration (and Brexit) for 20 years. I don't know if the "you say you are against immigration and get called a racist" was ever true, but it certainly hasn't been true for years and years now. But still gets trotted out when anyone (like the OP) tries to talk about issues such as the hotel riots etc. We have a Labour government that has said it wants to reduce immigration and that has actually reduced immigration, including irregular immigration. The problem is, it's never enough and the goal posts are constantly moved. First it's "people coming here illegally" then it's "economic migrants" then it's "remigration" or anger at violence committed by people who were born here because if their parents hadn't been allowed in the crimes would never have happened.

It's like when you had men like Andrew Tate selling classes on how to trick women into sex work. The second someone expressed concern it's "well, men do have problems..." It sets up a false binary. Be against mobs burning people alive in their own homes? You must want open borders and to shut down debate on the issue. Be against sex trafficking? You must hate men....

The people shutting down debate right now, and misconstruing peoples words and deliberately insulting those that disagree are primarily politicians on the right (Farage, Lowe, Jenrick) not the mainstream left. And to answer the original question I do think most people are starting to see through it. The problem is you get people like Elon Musk constantly stirring the pot.

snurtifier · 24/07/2026 11:45

The number of people expressing anti-Semitic views and blaming Jewish people for everything is certainly a scary parallel to the 1930s. Only this time it's coming from the left.

friedaklein · 24/07/2026 11:46

I have had two instances of racist abuse in the last month. In London! This never used to happen. One was directed at my slightly deaf 81- year- old mum who didn't get out of the way fast enough because she has arthritis.

But I don't talk about it here because posters always try to convince me it's not racist, just mental illness.

anyolddinosaur · 24/07/2026 11:48

If all you want is to feel temporarily better then look for the helpers, there are always helpers. I went to see what the horrible comments in the express were about but must have found the wrong bit. I saw comments about teenage girls who went out to try and help directing the emergency services and trying to stop people filming. I saw comments about the emergency services. An unnamed day tripper went out 3 times and managed to bring in 2 children. There are always helpers. Yes there are also always people who say nasty things but that happens when white people die in the sea too, it's a way people reassure themselves it wont happen to them because they wouldnt do the same thing. There may also be plain nasty comments - there are plenty of bots producing such posts to create concern.

In real life how many people do you know who try to help those around them and how many who cause trouble? Where I live the former definitely outnumber the latter. We have a few noisy troublemakers and a lot more quiet people getting on with being helpful. It might shock you to know some have political views you would not like and some of the ones you would like talk up a storm but do nowt.

The people shutting down debate ARE the mainstream left - if you cant accept that then you are part of the problem.

friedaklein · 24/07/2026 11:54

InWithPeaceOutWithStress · 24/07/2026 11:11

She’s looking for a discussion not a debate. It can be incredibly productive to discuss things in depth with people you largely agree with. Not everything has to be a debate with opposing sides.

There is a reason why black and brown mners have their own forums.
Because we get tired of being told racism is not racism.

BoredZelda · 24/07/2026 12:05

mamamamamamamamarmalade · 24/07/2026 10:45

@BoredZelda

shouldn’t illegal immigrants (by which I don’t mean asylum seekers, but people who have overstayed visas or who have snuck in but not claimed asylum and are here illegally) be deported? Surely that is the purpose of having laws?

is it unreasonable to be concerned that young men who have been living in a country which is extremely brutalised and unbelievably misogynistic may not share the same values and may need, at the very least, some form of planned integration strategy?

is it unreasonable to query whether the asylum system is really working when you can pay a gang leader to come to Britain knowing that they are a criminal (it’s hardly a surprise is it? You wouldn’t need a small boat if it were legitimate!) and then claim that you are a victim of people smuggling and fear reprisals to stay? Or you can claim you are a victim of the Taliban, whether or not that is true and no one can check it?

is it unreasonable to query whether international laws that were designed at a time at which people smuggling was not really a thing and smartphones certainly were not are serving their original purpose, particularly when the limits of what counts as “oppression” or “family ties” have been stretched to quite a large extent beyond armed conflict etc that were originally in view?

Is it unreasonable to point out that 40 per cent of those claiming asylum are never expected to pay tax, so there is a genuine question around funding and integration?

these are difficult conversations and none of that requires us to be racist or claim immigrants are rapists, but I personally don’t see enough of them happening in a sensible mainstream forum.

Anyone who has no legal basis (and never has had) to be here should be dealt with within the law. Deportation where possible, but returning them to a war zone is not allowed so I’d like to see a solution to that.

Over stayers should be reviewed on a case by case basis. To deport all of these may not be in our interests. For example, a father who is supporting his family, part of the community, contributing to the exchequer, working in an industry that has a shortage of labour (construction for example), but for the sake of some dates paperwork that might have elapsed, but he was too busy to notice, or finds navigating the complex system a bit problematic? Deporting that guy would be cutting off our nose to spite our face. Overstayers who came here on a student visa, barely studied and has disappeared into the gig economy, avoiding taxes, yeah, that guy is not good for our economy and shouldn’t be here.

It is entirely unreasonable to tar all young men from another country with the same brush, whilst ignoring the unbelievably misogynistic and violent nature of British men, them being the ones who commit over 95% of VAWG. It feels very disingenuous to have men protesting to “protect our girls”, to find that 40% of them have domestic abuse convictions. It is dishonest to use false statistics to bolster their case, particularly where the basis they provide for their numbers ignores the complex issue of rape reporting and institutional biases in the police and justice system. I would be entirely on board with a strategy to target men in reducing VAWG, which would include exploring cultural attitudes, but specifically targeting immigrant men for that would make little difference to the problems women face in the U.K.

That there are problems with the asylum system is not in doubt. As with any government process in the U.K., there is the ability for it to be abused. Whether it is our benefits system, taxation, the NHS, our justice system, there are always people who find a way to sneak through the cracks. The answer isn’t to say we need to reduce the numbers, it is to fix the system. You claim you wouldn’t need a small boat if you are legitimate, but you realise there is no, safe, legal route for someone to claim asylum in many cases in the U.K.? You have to get to this country (or approach a consulate) to claim asylum. If you are a victim of the Taliban in Afghanistan, there is no U.K. consulate you can go to, you’d need to get a visa to go to the nearest one (Pakistan). That is incredibly difficult to do, particularly if you are trying to remain under the radar. The schemes we had to help those we left behind when the West fucked up their country have all closed. When you do get here, the evidence you need to provide is quite detailed. There has been much made of the report that a guy was taking money off people to advise them simply to claim they were gay and they would get in. What is missing from most of those reports is, there is no evidence that any person who paid him was successful in their application. It’s important to deal in facts when we talk about asylum. People’s lives depend on it.

The international treaties we were instrumental in setting up and voluntarily signed are reviewed all the time. Naive to think people smuggling is a new phenomenon, but the system was not simply designed for armed conflict. The nature of oppression has changed, but also political and geological climates have changed. Are we really going to argue that when a developing nation faces a climate crisis largely caused by developed nations results in a country becoming unliveable, we have zero responsibility to provide a home for those who are displaced? When the west starts a war in the Middle East with no exit strategy and it leads to a dangerous dictatorship rising to power (often because of our own political meddling) and the people within that nation face destitution or death because of our actions, we do not have any obligations? The world is more complex and therefore so are the reasons for seeking asylum.

I can’t find any basis for the 40% statistic, I’d be interested to see where that comes from. How does it relate to the number of vulnerable, elderly people who come here? However, rather than focussing on a statistic, it’s important to find out why that is the case. What is preventing people from finding and staying in work? Is it a reluctance on employers to hire them? Is it a result of chronic mental health issues (PTSD etc) caused by their experiences? Is it that their skills are not transferable and training is difficult to access? Is it that the only work available is low paid and keeps them below the threshold? I’m sure there are some who just choose not to, in the same way as we have some in the U.K. who do the same, but as with the vast majority of people born here, people want to work. Data helps us fix that problem.

I agree that these conversations are not happening, and they should be. A lot of good work is done by charity organisations to explore all these issues, but the the discourse is derailed, largely because of the divisive nature of our politics and our society. Too many people just don’t want to hear that these issues have a solution, they just want to jump to “we’re full, get them out”. Much of this is because of media and politicians who are scapegoating. The economic problems we have won’t be solved by reducing immigration to close to zero. We could rid the country of every non taxpaying immigrant, legal or not, and we would still not be able to get a GP appointment, our schools would still be over crowded and wages would still be low. The reasons for this sit with the small number of people with the power and the money, but it’s not in their interest for us to be told that so instead we’re told to blame “others”. That allows the conversation to be commandeered by racists who love the arguments it gives them because they can pretend it’s not about racism. The internet’s algorithms then manipulate those who are not racist into genuinely believing they are at risk and that’s how we get far right parties leading in the polls.

Swipe left for the next trending thread