Why is MN more concerned about the trans debate than misogynistic men and discrimination against women?

[Smurfetteto]

Men hate me, a lot of them. Overtly, covertly.

I've never met a trans person who hates me for no reason.

I'm not trans, I'm female and binary.

I just want to know why MN puts all the debate into trans and not male and female misogynists.

This.

Any decent & respectful man, whatever gender he identifies as, will recognise that women need single sex spaces and stay out of them.

And if everyone knows that the decent blokes stay out of women’s toilets & changing rooms, then it’s that much easier for women to complain or object to the staff at a pub or gym without worrying about being accused of transphobia & banned.

Right, but what would the opinion be? That they don't belong with us? That they're men? That they're unsafe? I mean even if someone thought all that it would be impossible to change anything about the way that we live our lives. The whole pub isn't about to kick someone out of the loo because of one person's opinion!

My 'bubble' - by which I mean the pubs I go to, events I frequent, groups I'm apart of, and my circle of friends/acquaintances, comprises of men and women from all sorts of backgrounds and appearances. The general area is pretty hippy-ish and welcoming too. People can hang out where they like, but TW will always be welcome where I am.

1. its the same debate, TWAM so on an individual their trampling of boundaries is clear evidence of their misogyny
2. On a societal level if we cannot define women, we cannot legislate to protect or support women - there can be no greater misogyny

you ask why misogyny is not a hate crime? If misogyny is the hatred of women, isn’t it important to be able to define what a woman is? If your definition includes men than what are you protecting?

The trans issue can have a permanent impact on young people who are go down this route, influenced by those who drive this debate. This wave wasn’t started by teenagers it was started by males in their 40s and 50s and has slowly captured the vulnerable. The way this group has influenced others and the slow silencing of critics and opposition is frightening. I am saddened by the way the mainstream parties accepted this. I am pleased the tide is turning

The whole pub isn't about to kick someone out of the loo because of one person's opinion!

Which means if a woman who would like to have single sex spaces for whatever reason, previous experience of assault for example, would just have to suck it up in your Nirvana of love and acceptance and kindness, just to accommodate men who demand access to these space. This is pretty misogynistic in my book.

Very good question. The vendetta against trans people on mumsnet and the world at large is so blatantly misguided. It’s depressing. If the posters that participate in the vendetta spent half as much time, actually engaging with the political debates and decisions that harm women instead of chasing phantoms, the world would undoubtedly be a better place.

Out reproductive rights are under threat. Why don’t we start there? Why don’t we work om ensuring that all women have access to safe abortions and birth control and while we’re at it education? Trans people are not the enemy - the far right is.

@FrootyCider

People can hang out where they like, but TW will always be welcome where I am.

what you mean here is you will always welcome TW, above preserving the rights of women and tough luck for anyone who doesn’t want men on their hockey team, in their gym showers, at their breastfeeding group, attending their women’s DV refuge support. Seems like the very definition of misogyny that the OP is questioning

If a woman is raped and goes to the police for support she could find herself talking to a man-pretending-to-be-a-woman as her "female" officer.

She could then go to the NHS, ask for a female nurse or doctor and find herself with a man-pretending-to-be-a-woman treating her.

She then does to her local women's centre to ask about support for women and, guess what, she could find a man-pretending-to-be-a-woman working there.

He could signpost her to a rape crisis group for support in which there could be a man-pretending-to-be-a-woman.

And then she starts going to the gym, where there are no longer female only changing rooms due to the man-pretending-to-be-a-woman.

And she can't even get bragging rights of winning a parkrun due to a man-pretending-to-be-a-woman.

Oh, do tell me again about the man who's good at recommending books.

So does your pubs have male and female loos then @FrootyCider ? If it’s just a do what you want/go where you situation?

I am legally entitled to certain single sex spaces. It harms women not to have those.

Why don’t we work on teaching men to abide by the law and respect the word no?

Nice bate and switch there from "they're welcome in any space I'm in" to "It doesn't cause any problems in my walking group".

Just because you enjoy going in a walk together doesn't mean every female should be comfortable with them in changing rooms, public toilets, hospital wards, prison cells, rape suport groups and women's refuges.

Trans identifying men ARE males though. Men who parody women by dressing up as one ARE mysoginists.
So in fact you want to discuss any man who isn’t gay, isn’t bi, isn’t trans-identifying then?

Because men don’t want it to be.

Out of interest, how do you know these people are transwomen?
How do you know if Steve actually just likes the feel of a skirt go spinny against his legs and the bonus is that it hides his euphoria boner very nicely.

And what if Dave, the local creep who every women knows not to be alone with, suddenly joins Steve in his fashion choices? Or even if he does fuck-all and just makes a declaration of womanly feelings?

Are you going to pass judgment and declare him not true trans? Or will you welcome him joining you on the 2 mile hike to the remote Wetherspoon's loos with nobody else around just as heartily?

The few trans identifying people I have met have either been not fine or not lovely, sometimes both.

I hate the idea that children are physically harmed to fit in with gender ideology- it’s revolting . and it’s girls who suffer most. Cutting off breasts. Taking hormones to suppress their natural hormone- the ones that protect us from osteoporosis. Taking testosterone- that led to the early deaths of USSR athletes. How can anyone support that? Evil

I also can’t understand why gender should take preference over sex when sex matters - anything to do with sexual violence or medical treatment needs to be based on sex

and since we can prove that transwomwn offend sexually at the same rate as men - they shouldn’t be allowed in places where female dignity matters

this isn’t about being anti transgender people / it’s about wanting what’s best for women and girls and that should exclude putting them under the knife unnecessarily ( and let’s face it transgender people have always existed therefore there are generations of women who managed to grow up without the knife and pills so it’s provably unnecessary )

and iT can never include putting vulnerable women in with fully male bodied lesbian identitfying , proven to sexually offend at male rates , transowmen

So have we answered your question @Smurfetteto?

I think if you dug deep and listened, many would object to having men in their single sex spaces if they thought they wouldn’t be insulted by expressing their objection. I for one would never tell a man to get out of a woman’s toilets for blindingly obvious reasons.

Either we have single sex spaces or we don't.

The reason that this is a key topic on MN is because of the bizarre behaviour of people who think a man saying 'I'm a lady' literally changes them into one.

And the even more concerning behaviour of the men who say they are women and the women who for some reason believe them, who put barbed wire round baseball bats, scream 'punch a TERF in the face' and who stand in front of calls to Kill TERFs because they pointed this out. This includes elected officials.

And the manipulation of people wanting to avoid being smashed in the face to change legislation and procedures and laws to force everyone to 'protect the dolls'.

And the police who stand right next to it; witness it all, and do nothing.

100%

I came here to say the same thing

We can help them figure out ‘who they are’. They’re men. Simples!

I would say that MN is concerned about all the misogynist men who act to harm women and erode their rights and freedoms.

The common garden misogynist is a known quantity. But the genderists have opened up an entirely new front of misogyny with an avalanche of unique tactics and it requires a distinct approach to guard against it.

And the conversation of how we are being hobbled this time and how to keep women safe this time requires a breadth and depth of discussion.

So your ‘bubble’ is happy to break the Equality laws on several fronts? Just as a reminder, there are 9 protected characteristics. Sex is one, religious belief is another, disability is another.
Gender identity ISN’T a PC.
Therefore, a man who claims to be a woman and is in a single sex pub toilet is breaking the law possibly on 2 fronts - entering a single sex space when he is the opposite sex, and ignoring the religious beliefs of a whole swathe of women who may be Muslim or Jewish. In addition they could also be breaking the law if they enter a single sex space where women who may have a disability related to trauma, caused by other men, expect privacy from all men.
But you do you - put the desires of men with delusions over those of all women. What a champ!

Thank you for seeing it. I’d never bought of my trauma as a protected characteristic before but of course it is.