Why is MN more concerned about the trans debate than misogynistic men and discrimination against women?

[Smurfetteto]

Men hate me, a lot of them. Overtly, covertly.

I've never met a trans person who hates me for no reason.

I'm not trans, I'm female and binary.

I just want to know why MN puts all the debate into trans and not male and female misogynists.

@FrootyCider I've got lots of trans friends IRL and they're allowed in any space I'm in!
ah the “I don’t care if anyone else doesn’t want it”?

TheBafflingIsGenerallyComplete

actually I’ve seen this person be lovely and helpful to countless people and cheer people’s day up so I wouldn’t guess them to be any less of a nice person than a non trans person. And you see what they’re doing as trying to fool others as opposed to trying to figure out who they are which is what I think (when I think of it at all!) I don’t know, have to go to work now (the joys!) so I’m not going to solve this debate just saying I’m not going to be any more wary

Lol at the disingenuously inserted premise that the term 'misogynistic men' can only refer to men without a trans identity (or any other affiliation to the LGBT grouping), so that it is 'off topic' to stay outside this arbitrarily ring-fenced subset of misogyny.

Gymnastics like that reveal whether or not someone is posting in good faith, so I think we should keep in mind that the OP may not really be after an exchange of views here.

I’m going to assume you’re new and don’t know the context. Mumsnet became a place for talking about the intersection between women’s rights and trans rights because it was just about the only online space that allowed any discussion. The government (Conservative at the time) were on the verge of passing self ID legislation but it was impossible to debate it or even get much decent information about it except here. Someone (I’ve forgotten her name, sorry) wrote a book about it.

Because I don't appreciate misogynistic men telling me being female is irrelevant in my life or any other womens life.
Because being female matters, in life experiences, in health care, in sports.
Because I want dignity in public spaces for everyone female and whilst your transwoman friend may be lovely and nice, I don't know that and I don't want to share a communal changing room with any male.
Because many male people will use any excuse to perv on female people and what is easier than going into womens spaces and then claiming to identify as a woman when challenged. Hell, I know a teenage boy who did that for a laugh and got women into trouble for asking him to leave. He was untouchable and then bragged about it to his mates.

Well no-one else around us cares either. It probably helps that I'm in a bit of a bleeding-hearted liberal, hippy-ish area, but I just can't imagine anyone objecting to the presence of my friends... and if they did they'd certainly be in the minority. I admit I'm in a bit of a bubble, but I'm glad I am and that my friends feel safe!

When it comes to biological reality who you think you are is irrelevant. The sex you are is what matters. It’s total navel gazing to think otherwise.

You think there's a difference?

Safe from what? From having their delusions challenged?
How would you react if someone in your bubble would voice disagreement?

We are on topic. Transwomen are men; transmen are women.

So are you saying only heterosexual men can be misogynists? Gosh how very naive.

I know right? As if you get to decide on behalf of all women where they can and can’t go.

Safe from being insulted, safe to be themselves, safe to use spaces that they've been allowed in/been welcome in for...ever! The walking group has been going for 20ish years in some capacity, I've been going for a decade, and there's been transwomen coming to it for all that time, for example.

I really can't imagine what it would be like for someone to 'disagree' - we get on well! We did meet a TERF once. There wasn't a TW with us at the time thankfully, but a TERF came up to us at the pub, at first seemingly trying to engage in normal conversation, then starting to parrot MN speech. It was really bizarre. Like being preached at by a Mormon or something! 😂 Basically the whole pub told her to get lost.

What do you mean by voiced disagreement anyway? If someone called my friends transphobic names they'd be told that they're out of order. If someone objected to say, a TW in the walking group they'd be told 'sorry you feel that way but tough'. Like we wouldn't be mean to them but we wouldn't bend to their whims.

Meant to quote you there. See answer above. Mo must fly and get my hiking boots on!

Because the trans debate is about misogynistic men (and women) and discrimination against women.

If you read your response to me through again: why would anyone who has a different opinion to you voice this out loud if this is how you talk to and about them?

So, in your bubble there are no men that would welcome men who think they are women into their spaces and make them feel safe there? Does your bubble only have women (and men who claim to be women) in them?

I agree OP but it is pointless raising it on Mumsnet. That is why there is an entire board where they can rant away to each other, otherwise threads just fill up with longer and longer anti-trans posts, rehashing the same old lines we've all heard before.

Well bully for you being comfortable, but your comfort is not above the law.
and as a rape and sexual assault survivor, I dont feel comfortable.

Trans women are men so I don't understand what you are trying to say.

It’s all misogyny. One sort just wears a frock.

You say you’ve never met a trans woman who hates you, and you have met men who hate you.

Let’s unpack that.

1. Trans women are men
2. Trans women who enter women’s spaces, despite knowing many women feel distressed/scared/violated by this. I’d say this is evidence of hating women.
3. The fact men (‘trans debate’) have been able to violate women’s boundaries so much, and convince people like you that they are entitled to do that, just because they want to - fuck women’s experience - that’s misogyny 101.
4. ‘The trans debate’ is about old fashioned sex stereotypes. Ie ‘if you are a boy who likes hanging out with girls, wearing dresses and nail varnish etc, you must really be a girl inside’. How about we get back to working on the objective that it’s ok for boys to like anything and it doesn’t make them a girl. Same for girls. How about we work on how shit it is to be a teenage girl in our society, preyed upon by men, that they literally want to opt out of it in droves?

If you think women here don’t care about other manifestations of misogyny, you haven’t been paying attention. The trans issue has laid bare how much misogyny there always was, and that progress in sex equality had not advanced nearly as much as we thought it had.

Because its an area of legislative change and impacting the way pretty recently won rights and schemes are interpreted. Being able to define a woman is central to those schemes/rights. They were there to protect women from the worst aspects of misogyny.

Wheras tackling misogyny in the general male population is more nebulous.

I think a lot would say that the trans debate is about an expression of misogyny anyway.

Its not an area i discuss much as it goes in circles. I prefer discussing other aspects of feminism an i do think they get lost on the site. But I do understand why.

It's the same debate

What's the difference between men who aren't GB or T and men who are?

So men who are trans ( for you that’s women who identify as men) never hate you yet all other men might?

meaning they are different to men ? Therefore
not men at all ?

got to love a logic fail at this time of the morning