Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

[twoandcooplease]

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

Which I think would be good practice btw.

That’s interesting. Such an awful case. Every murder is terrible but there is something so awfully heartrending about a trusted person who is meant to save lives instead purposefully taking away the lives of the most helpless and vulnerable who have barely had the chance to live.

It's such a big case though and emotive because it's nature. I feel that once the police got the case beyond a certain point they had to be right and it would have been stranger if she had been found not guilty. I'm sure the case would have pulled at the heart strings of the jurors too - there's no way to not be biased when it comes to babies.

The social media aspect and the backlash she would have faced if she had been found innocent would have completely ruined her life.

It's a tragedy and I definitely feel there's more to it than we'll ever know. I feel for all the families involved.

And if someone else came along who you think had better credentials - and they can't produce a defence to show she's innocent.

Then what?

You believe she's guilty? On the same evidence she's already found guilty with?

Or would you say they are also a bad defender barrister?

Is a good one only someone who can produce enough of a defence to have her acquitted?

I'm astounded that some people are so convinced she's innocent when it's clear from their posts that they have not followed the trial closely and read all the court transcripts. If you feel that strongly at least read up on it ffs. They are all available on the Chester Standard website. It's not the job of anyone on this thread to convince you or spoon feed you the evidence.

They aren't sorry!!!! They know exactly what they are doing and know exactly what typing the same thing over and over is attempting to achieve.

Yup.

Sad sacks. Will stop replying now as it's a waste of time.

It's such a big case though and emotive because it's nature. I feel that once the police got the case beyond a certain point they had to be right and it would have been stranger if she had been found not guilty.

But she wasn't found guilty on all counts.

Some were not guilty and some were no clear verdict.

I think its testimony to the jury not to find guilty in all counts when 13 of them were guilty findings. In such a high profile case to find some not guilty and others guilty knowing there's parents who will get different outcomes from this decision.

Also - for me - shows that where the evidence was beyond reasonable doubt it definitely was because where it wasn't they found not guilty.

You're an attention seeking twat.

Ok one last time.

Circumstantial does not mean the evidence is in doubt.

And if you really are a "professional" as you claim, your lack of basic understanding and ability to learn when people are telling you things is highly concerning. I certainly wouldn't want you in any professional role near me.

Don't give it oxygen. Or the attention it craves.

If she was innocent why did she lie about Baby E not having blood around his mouth and screaming at 9pm. The mother was made out by LL to be mistaken but unfortunately for Letby the mother made phone call at the time that was proven by phone records. Just one example. I also thought in the beginning she may be innocent but the evidence is there if you look at it. Theres no smoking gun but there is enough there to convict on most of the charges.

Mnetcurtains what a fab username!

I love when posters throw dyslexia at me. Especially because I'm dyslexic 🤣🤣🤣🤪

I would question that actually. If it was a black person it could go either way. Though I'm inclined to agree , the Rotherham sex trafficking cases (I really hate the racist BS that comes with this case) allegedly demonstrates police were slow to act because of fears of being accused of racism. I have no idea if that assertion was merely a get out clause for the police (I'm inclined to think so) but I suppose it's feasible. As such, it's possible an ethnic person could equally get away with serial murder if such a stance were taken. Though I find it unlikely.

But I do think classism is certainly at work here. Unfortunately, being working class doesn't afford you any privileges of exception, it does the opposite. No one really fights for the working class. By that I mean had LL been black or frankly any other ethnic minority there's hell no way that more of a hue and cry about the lack of evidence in this case wouldn't have been raised. There would have been a lot of noise. It's why I'm interested. No black person has the privilege of believing as 100% truth naively asserted here that a jury finding someone guilty means they're always guilty. As a black person I don't have that faith, can't afford to. It's a plain untruth at any rate.

But it seems white people in the main do believe this, and are prepared to see a young girl presenting with no real motive, no background of exaggerated psychopathy (everybody scores a little bit, if I'm ever falsely accused you'll find something dysfunctional in my life to build a motive around) in a hospital where there were problems and more motive to accuse her to cover their arses, just go down on the basis of basic circumstantial evidence mostly because she hasn't got the class and resources to get better defence and appear more sympathetic. Wow.

Nobody cares about your dyslexia. Stop trying to derail the thread to make it all about you.

You're a fucking idiot on a windup. I don't care if I get deleted, I just hope you see this and know that you are a sad sad little man clown.

Was she held on remand in between arrests or was she living at home, was she working still?

I hadnt realised until posters said, that the notes where she says 'I wont ever have a family' had been written after the first arrest.

Did she give explanation for the notes in terms of her saying she was evil and she did this?

There appear to be stats showing excess neonatal deaths continuing after she left.

So why do reports say there wasn't a single death for 10 months after she wasn't there?

@DysonSpheres didn't put up any expert witnesses on her behalf,

The defence consulted experts but chose not to have any of them testify - presumably because their testimony would not have been positive or beneficial for LL - so what does that tell you? That the experts reviewing the evidence also saw she was guilty perhaps?

How much coverage did you read? The local papers covered it in a lot of detail, and the Mail was also producing a detailed podcast.

@nolamesallowed seriously, have you got any shame? You are defending a convicted child murderer because you have no fukcing closure?

How about those poor little babies and their families who have lost their lives forever? How about their closure and their pain?!
Your replies are so sickening!

Absolutely. But the more we learn, the more I’m wondering if she’s not simply (simply!) a sadistic, vicious psychopath. I was reading a piece in The Guardian just now about police investigating a further 30-40 new cases of suspected harm. The piece cites a little girl born 15 weeks early - I wasn’t aware of the evidence at the time, but Letby was found guilty of trying to kill her twice.

The occasions she chose were the parents’ attempt to celebrate their baby reaching 100 days old, with a little party and a cake, and the day that would have been her due date.

Obviously they would have been important milestones for the parents as their child was still very poorly, but it seems Letby was so vindictive she was determined to use these happy and hopeful occasions to steal their joy.

The little girl was left quadraplegic; she’s nil by mouth and needs 24-hour care. Letby is a monster.

I would question that actually. If it was a black person it could go either way. Though I'm inclined to agree , the Rotherham sex trafficking cases (I really hate the racist BS that comes with this case) allegedly demonstrates police were slow to act because of fears of being accused of racism. I have no idea if that assertion was merely a get out clause for the police (I'm inclined to think so) but I suppose it's feasible. As such, it's possible an ethnic person could equally get away with serial murder if such a stance were taken. Though I find it unlikely.

Well yes, there is that angle too - but again it's not an obvious comparison, because in that case it could have been argued that they were targeting a community, rather than a single bad actor. I think in this case the hospital management were entirely interested in covering their own arses though so I can't see how race impacts on their decision-making at all.

But I do think classism is certainly at work here. Unfortunately, being working class doesn't afford you any privileges of exception, it does the opposite. No one really fights for the working class. By that I mean had LL been black or frankly any other ethnic minority there's hell no way that more of a hue and cry about the lack of evidence in this case wouldn't have been raised. There would have been a lot of noise. It's why I'm interested. No black person has the privilege of believing as 100% truth naively asserted here that a jury finding someone guilty means they're always guilty. As a black person I don't have that faith, can't afford to. It's a plain untruth at any rate.

I see your points here, although I don't agree with your assessment of the evidence re Letby. There is definitely a class element but it's difficult to unpick that from the general impression of a very 'normal' person with no obvious red flags. There was recently a very tragic case of a baby being killed by his parents and the mother was connected with aristocracy, but I don't remember anyone thinking it was impossible to believe because there were other factors - abusive relationship, drugs, mental health issues. I can't remember the names but it was quite high profile.

But it seems white people in the main do believe this, and are prepared to see a young girl presenting with no real motive, no background of exaggerated psychopathy (everybody scores a little bit, if I'm ever falsely accused you'll find something dysfunctional in my life to build a motive around) in a hospital where there were problems and more motive to accuse her to cover their arses, just go down on the basis of basic circumstantial evidence mostly because she hasn't got the class and resources to get better defence and appear more sympathetic. Wow.

Again I don't agree here. I've been convinced by the evidence we have available because the incidents were so numerous and so exceptional (i.e. not natural causes) and there is just no other possible culprit. And the two separate occasions where she was basically caught in the act. I also think she had an excellent defence team.

I had read that about many collapses being on a significant milestone date. That’s a whole other layer of cruelty 😔 I’m sure more will come out - especially as like you say, they are looking further back into her career.

... there are some things worse than death. A reputation as a serial baby killer is one of those things, because even when you die your name is mud and the stigma attaches to your family and loved ones for generations

Like Shipman's wife and kids they may all be offered the opportunity to change their identities

And on the endless carry-on about "circumstantial evidence", I wonder if some are forgetting that the requirement is to decide on a verdict ^beyond reasonable doubt" - as in, having considered the totality of the evidence, is it "reasonable" to conclude that it's enough to secure a conviction

I haven't read the details of all the surviving victims, but that's fucking horrific! I hope she's dealt some jailhouse justice (or whatever they call it).