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Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

1000 replies

twoandcooplease · 19/08/2023 01:47

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

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18
AvocadotoastORahouse · 20/08/2023 20:53

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 16:43

@EmpressSisi I do understand your point but it doesn't constitute hard forensic evidence but circumstantial. Again, please try to understand I do wish I could find her guilty but just can't. I feel bad for that but it is.

As has been said many many times <sigh> that circumstantial evidence is OFTEN the only or main evidence in murder cases. Circumstantial IS VALID evidence, it's often the list of "circumstances" that mean it could ONLY be that person. It's very rare that a murderer is found standing over the body with a bloody knife in their hands saying " I did it" for example. So MOST murder cases include a lot of circumstantial evidence to prove guilt.

Which is why it can take police a while to build up enough of a picture to satisfy the CPS to proceed with a prosecution. They won't proceed unless they think there's enough for a decent case!

What actual "forensic" evidence would you want? Highly unlikely ANY murder investigation would meet your standards it sounds like.

novalia89 · 20/08/2023 20:58

SadHappy · 20/08/2023 17:28

A lot of people are reacting to the the conviction for killing babies in as you can understand in an emotional way. But hold on how much can we trust the police and institutions in the UK ?
Looking at the facts Lucy Letby is very unlikely to be a psychopath, sociopath or suffer MBP as Allit did. I say this as if she did the would be evidence of somekind which we don't.
Only she knows if she did it and even if she didn't the accusations could make her question her self and would cause severe stress and trauma.
Then we look at the 6 years the prosecution had to put their case together, not limited by funds in their pursuit of expert witnesses.
Was there cluster deaths, sloopy practice by hospital staff?. letby's defence was obviously financially challenged and only called call one expert, a plumber as their withess. The defence only had 10 moths to prepare I believe. Then we have fairly detailed reports by another scientist on the web stating the prosecution expert witness testimony is putting it mildly not up to scratch.
Personally I have no faifth in the conviction, this could turn out to be one of the biggest miscarriage of justice in the UK for a long time. At any rate Letby deserves a proper evenly matched defence upon appeal as if sentenced the tariff may well be whole life.

This is why I'm interested in the case. It could be quite easy to scapegoat or blame an incompetent or overworked nurse and they would have little way of defending themselves. Because it is an emotional case, people want a villan and the public were convinced that she did it far before the verdict. (I think the staff reporting her and the senior staff dealing with it is one of the biggest things for me to make me believe that she is guilty, I'm just interested in the future repercussions and the whole motive).

Mustardseed86 · 20/08/2023 21:02

truthhurts23 · 20/08/2023 20:22

IF she was black or non white, it wouldn't even matter to people if she was "young, seemingly happy and social female, with a normal upbringing. Parents still married, good jobs, doted on only child who did well and got a degree, became nurse, has good social life, supportive family"
because people would only look at her skin colour and say yeah, its believable that she did do it and they would disregard anything else about her.
Absolutely no one would be saying,
"I just cant believe that someone like her would do this". " She doesn't look like the sort of person who would do this." if she was non white

often you read of mass murderers and they often, especially younger ones, have a troubled background and are isolated and angry individuals.

I do watch true crimes , for years and I have actually come across the opposite, For mass murderers to be successful in what they do , they have to be somewhat sociable, charismatic, or they wouldn't be able to lure any victims.
If they were antisocial and outwardly angry people would just avoid them,
they would also be caught a lot quicker if they weren't manipulative and charming.

There are so many murderers who had unremarkable or even good, childhoods, with parents who love and dote on them, they still end up killing.
And vice versa, there are people who had terrible, abusive childhoods and they wouldn't hurt a fly , so its really a mixed bag

The childhood only becomes relevant after the murderer is caught and people are trying to piece together the persons psyche.
And even then, people need to be objective about what information they are reading
There are lots of functioning adults who have childlike tendencies and keep children's toys but its not concerning, unless they do something like kill someone
then it does become somewhat relevant because it is an oddity for an adult to have a room full of stuffed teddy bears, its not socially acceptable

It’s unusual so be so social and happy with no obvious issues and become a mass baby killer
Like others have said on the thread, she was social and nice to people on a very superficial level, for all we know its probably an act,
she seemed to have disdain towards a lot of her colleagues and thought she was more competent and qualified than they were
she also moaned, whined and complained about everything
she doesn't sound like a particularly great person, just not terrible
she clearly wasn't happy , judging by all the self loathing notes she used to write herself

I’m not sure why people are obsessed with it being because she’s white.
Being white is part of the reason why she was able to get away with it for so long
part of that presumption of innocence is due to her whiteness,
I don't know if that makes you uncomfortable or not but that is the reality

There are so many white people parroting the same things
"she doesn't look/ seem like she was capable of this" "she looks innocent"
and things along those lines but they wont expand on what they think a child murderer should look like.
which just proves everyone's point

White women do kill people , young people also kill ,
educated people kill , middle class people kill, people with two parents kill,
nurses kill, people with degrees kill, social butterfly's kill
its not always the ugly woman with the hook nose and warts or the man with bug eyes and hump

ANYbody can kill someone, the sooner people swallow that fact , they will stop making stupid statements that Lucy Letby doesnt fit the profile because she absolutely does fit the profile, she is a human with hands and thats all it takes to kill someone else

I just don't know about all this. I'd be utterly gobsmacked if any of the girls I work with went on to do something like Letby. The same feeling of 'not being able to get my head around it'. Girls' grammar so academic, mainly middle class. Very very multicultural/multiethnic. I can't speak to others' biases and of course my own unconscious bias but I know I absolutely wouldn't somehow find it easier to believe if they weren't white vs if they were! Not for a second.

I can see there's an element of classism to a lot of the commentary but I think it's highlighting that she in no way had a chaotic or deprived upbringing, a lack of prospects, she wasn't socially isolated or previously viewed as a problematic or troubled individual.

It also seems unfalsifiable - I can't think of a similar case of someone young, fresh-faced (not a racial euphemism in any way!), female, working in a caring profession and generally seen as 'nice' being convicted of serial murder, let alone murdering babies. Who could you even compare this to? How on earth do you decide a black or Asian nurse would have come under suspicion sooner? It's a very unique case, thank goodness.

JanieEyre · 20/08/2023 21:03

Flutterbye22 · 20/08/2023 09:32

I find that really odd too. A bit unhinged.

I think anyone's entitled to be "a bit unhinged" in that situation.

Tippley · 20/08/2023 21:03

novalia89 · 20/08/2023 20:58

This is why I'm interested in the case. It could be quite easy to scapegoat or blame an incompetent or overworked nurse and they would have little way of defending themselves. Because it is an emotional case, people want a villan and the public were convinced that she did it far before the verdict. (I think the staff reporting her and the senior staff dealing with it is one of the biggest things for me to make me believe that she is guilty, I'm just interested in the future repercussions and the whole motive).

Would it be easy though? The threshold to progress to trial is high, and then the jury decide based on the evidence and the defence put forward in a fair trial. Its not a case of someone being put forward as a scapegoat and then a jury being coerced into finding them guilty.

TheShellBeach · 20/08/2023 21:04

bellac11 · 20/08/2023 20:03

Also a query, I read up about Beverley Allit after people made reference to her on here, people keep describing her as 'very unwell'

What with? Given she seems to have manipulated her way into Rampton and is said to have 'possibly' suffered with fabricated illness by proxy, whats her actuall diagnosis and illness then?

Psychopathy

bellac11 · 20/08/2023 21:04

novalia89 · 20/08/2023 20:51

Even on panorama she was described as 'the untold story of Britain's most unlikely serial killer'. Why? why was she the most unlikely? Who would be the most likely? Our prejudices are showing even in the reporting.

Of course she is unlikely

She doesnt appear (yet) to have had any mental or personality disorder. She doesnt appear to have any other type of disorders which could lead to impulsive or disinhibited behaviour

She doesnt appeaer to have had an abusive, trauma background

She doesnt appear to have been motivated by the common motivators, money, love/anger.

She doesnt appear to have had a history of bullying, cruelty, anti social behaviour

Its nothing to do with prejudice. On or many of the above markers are often seen in serial killers. On the face of it at the moment, she doesnt appear to have any of them (although she may have killed out of anger, who knows)

Rinoachicken · 20/08/2023 21:05

I really don’t think we can cast aspersions on the quality of her defence team.

She had a top grade defence team: https://www.exchangechambers.co.uk/people/benjamin-myers-kc/

Recently secured a not guilty for murder of shaken baby and David Duckenfield for the Hillsborough disaster.

She had a fair trial and was found guilty by a jury who took their time and considered all the evidence put before them.

End of.

There were no experts called for her defence because there WERE no experts prepared to speak to her defence - no experts who had anything to say that would support her version of events. Not because they couldn’t afford anyone, or because of an oversight or shoddy lawyering.

There was no defence because she had no defence - because she’s guilty.

Benjamin Myers KC - Criminal CV | Exchange Chambers

Ben specialises in serious crime. He is instructed consistently in cases of murder, manslaughter, high value fraud, money laundering, multimillion-pound confiscation under POCA, drug trafficking, national and international organised crime, rape, histor...

https://www.exchangechambers.co.uk/people/benjamin-myers-kc/

bellac11 · 20/08/2023 21:08

TheShellBeach · 20/08/2023 21:04

Psychopathy

Is that her formal diagnosis?

That doesnt make someone 'very unwell' as I keep reading references to her saying.

Psychopathy is just a way of being

Orangebadger · 20/08/2023 21:09

@Rinoachicken I agree. Her defence was weak because there was no defence. If there was it would have been used.

DaphneDeloresMoreheadRidesOn · 20/08/2023 21:09

jenbj · 19/08/2023 08:53

I think it's insulting to the jury that people who have followed the case from a distance are questioning their verdicts when they have spent months hearing evidence and listening to testimonies and many hours deliberating over their decisions. The fact that they didn't find her guilty of all the charges presented shows that they carefully considered each case before deciding.

In the meantime careers were put on hold, lives put on hold and they couldn't discuss what they were hearing day by day with anyone. They have done a great service.

Absolutely agree with this post

DysonSpheres · 20/08/2023 21:13

Best thing she could do is drop Myers for any defence going forward. I wouldn't want him as my defence lawyer if my life was on the line.

BIossomtoes · 20/08/2023 21:16

DysonSpheres · 20/08/2023 21:13

Best thing she could do is drop Myers for any defence going forward. I wouldn't want him as my defence lawyer if my life was on the line.

Where’s she going to find anyone better? He’s a superb lawyer, not a miracle worker.

CloudyMcCloudy · 20/08/2023 21:17

DaphneDeloresMoreheadRidesOn · 20/08/2023 21:09

Absolutely agree with this post

Me too. Not to mention how harrowing it would have been.

DaphneDeloresMoreheadRidesOn · 20/08/2023 21:18

@Rinoachicken he has done the best he possibly could with the hand he was dealt. It is a credit to his skills that he was able to mount a defence in the face of such overwhelming evidence against his client. He would have gone into this trial knowing he had very little chance of success however he had to work with the plea she entered.

our legal system is founded on the tenet that the accused, no matter how heinous the crimes, is entitled to mount a defence - without defence barristers prepared to defend people such as Roy Whiting, Ian Huntley and Joanna Dennehy it would collapse.

itsgettingweird · 20/08/2023 21:19

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:30

@itsgettingweird prove it, I'll believe you then with gratitude.

Oh give over 🤣🤣🤣🤣

It's been proven - hence the 13 guilty charges.

I'm not the prosecuting barrister it's not my job to prove it to you 🙄

DaphneDeloresMoreheadRidesOn · 20/08/2023 21:22

DysonSpheres · 20/08/2023 21:13

Best thing she could do is drop Myers for any defence going forward. I wouldn't want him as my defence lawyer if my life was on the line.

In which case you would be a fool. He is one of the leading criminal silks of his generation.

itsgettingweird · 20/08/2023 21:24

BIossomtoes · 20/08/2023 20:04

There appear to be stats showing excess neonatal deaths continuing after she left. Even before she left, discounting the deaths she was convicted for, there were still excess deaths that she didn't and couldn't have committed.

Is there any evidence (forensic or otherwise) of this?

There were excess perinatal deaths in 2018/2018.

They are different to neonatal.

Tippley · 20/08/2023 21:25

DysonSpheres · 20/08/2023 21:13

Best thing she could do is drop Myers for any defence going forward. I wouldn't want him as my defence lawyer if my life was on the line.

He's highly experienced and very highly regarded. His job isn't to get all of his clients off scot free, its to ensure they have a fair trial and that the underpinnings of the ethos of the justice system is upheld; which he did. I suspect a large part of her undoing was choosing to testify on the stand, and this is something he doesn't have control over and cannot consult her on. He had no power over that element. He did a good job given the evidence and the testimony he was given to work with.

AvocadotoastORahouse · 20/08/2023 21:28

@ArcticSkewer Oh I'm really not invested either way. No campaigning for me. Very much a passing interest.

Funny how you keep returning to the thread and saying the same stuff about miscarriages of justice though? HmmHmmHmm

AvocadotoastORahouse · 20/08/2023 21:32

@SadHappy LL was initially arrested in 2018 then finally in 2020, and her trial started in 2022 so where the heck do you get "six years to prepare" for the prosecution from?

And that "scientist" and the loopy websites have already been completely discredited. They can't even get peri natal and neo natal right. Hmm

AvocadotoastORahouse · 20/08/2023 21:33

@SadHappy oh and have you seen who her KC was? Highly respected and definitely didn't come cheap.

omgsally · 20/08/2023 21:34

novalia89 · 20/08/2023 20:58

This is why I'm interested in the case. It could be quite easy to scapegoat or blame an incompetent or overworked nurse and they would have little way of defending themselves. Because it is an emotional case, people want a villan and the public were convinced that she did it far before the verdict. (I think the staff reporting her and the senior staff dealing with it is one of the biggest things for me to make me believe that she is guilty, I'm just interested in the future repercussions and the whole motive).

If I was innocent, I would actively want to be removed from the unit and placed elsewhere, to prove beyond all doubt that I wasn't guilty. If my colleagues suspected me of endangering lives, I would want to take action, not double down and insist on remaining on that ward. She wasn't just suspected of writing poor reports or of having an abrupt bedside manner. She was under suspicion of the worst possible thing.

BeenThereDoneThat101 · 20/08/2023 21:36

DysonSpheres · 20/08/2023 21:13

Best thing she could do is drop Myers for any defence going forward. I wouldn't want him as my defence lawyer if my life was on the line.

😂
Hate to break it to you, but Lucy Letby wasn’t found guilty because she had a shit defence barrister. She was found guilty because she was, you know, guilty.

HaveYouHeardOfARoadAtlas · 20/08/2023 21:38

Moonlightdust · 20/08/2023 19:18

The police carried out separate investigations for each death/near death. I read that the Teams were not allowed to consult with each other on the cases until they had reached their conclusion.
This was a highly complex case and there was a lot of research done behind the scenes.

The officer in charge said they had weekly catch up meeting where all the teams briefed the others on what they found for their own investigation as the overall investigation continued. Heard him say it with my own ears on tv.

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